LL-L "Language varieties" 2010.02.17 (03) [EN]

Wed Feb 17 21:04:16 UTC 2010

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L O W L A N D S - L - 16 February 2010 - Volume 03
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From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2010.02.17 (01) [EN-NDS]

Both Helge and Joachim quoted the sentence about the "genetic relation"
between Dutch and Saxon. I guess, using the word "genetic" was calling for
misunderstandings. I meant it in its linguistic meaning (<
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_%28linguistics%29

>). I didn't mean to say anything about ethnicity, I only wanted to say,
that the closeness between Dutch and Saxon on the language family tree is
about the same as the closeness between German and Saxon or German and
Dutch.

From: Helge Tietz <helgetietz at yahoo.com <mailto:helgetietz at yahoo.com>>

Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2010.02.16 (04) [EN-NDS]

Marcus, you wrote: "The genetic relation of Dutch and Saxon is not closer
than the relation of Saxon and German"

I am not too certain about that. There a more common features between
Northern Germany and the Netherlands than just linguistic ones. Take a look
on rural settlements style and traditional farm houses, the diet and folk
songs and traditions. East of Amersfoort you effectlively find the same
traditional farm houses in style as you do over the whole of Northern
Germany up to Sleswick.

East of Amersfoort to me means Saxon. To me the Eem-Veluwe-IJssel line is
the line between Saxon and Dutch/Frankish.

I have been living for more then 10 years now in the Netherlands as a
Sleswig-Holsteener and there is no doubt to me that culturally,
linguistically and genetically the Netherlands and Northern Germany are much
closer linked to each other then to Southern Germany and the national border
between Northern Germany and the Netherlands is an absolute artificial one.

I fully agree on that. I feel much more close to the Dutch culture than to
the Southern German one.

From: "Joachim Kreimer-de Fries" <soz-red at jpberlin.de <mailto:
soz-red at jpberlin.de>>

Your postulate, beste Marcus, would end in calling US-, Canadian, Australian
etc. English *not "xy-English" but "United-Statish", "Canadian",
"Australian"* etc. - But what than with the indegenous languages there?

It would also end in *British English speakers to refuse having a "Germanic"
language *because there is another state of "Germany", with which having had
terrible experiences.

I didn't postulate anything. I just meant to say, that I respect the wish of
an ethnical/cultural/linguistic/religious/whatever group to abandon a name.
The Dutch have it expressed this wish by stopping to refer to their language
as "Nederduits". But that doesn't mean that others should follow their lead.

   On the other side, at least in German "Niederdeutsch" already is
   an established term for anything not affected by the High German
   sound shift. So there actually is no reason to "search" for a term.

That has been the message of my post. Oh no, again this inevitable
misapprehending of your quoted phrase above. Of course, you think "Low
German /Niederdeutsch / Nederduits / Nidderdüüdsk / Nederdütsch" being
restricted to Low German language varieties /in the Federal Republic of
Germany, including though the former GDR/. But why this reduction of
language family to state territory?
Has the Alsatian dialect changed from belonging the Upper German to the
French/Gallian/Roman family since belonging to France?

That states, because of the influence of the main and official language and
of politics can change the further development of a minority language, is
selfevident. But because of that such a language variety does not stop
belonging to the language family it is from.

That's right. I never meant to suggest anything like that. I don't know what
gave you that impression.

Belong the official languages and also the all-day languages of Belgium to
another language family than those of Netherlands? And further: have the Low
Saxon (nedersaksisch) idioms, as long as really spoken, on both sides of the
Germany border to Netherlands and Belgium changed there /language family,/
*/by this?/*

Absolutely not.

Finally, as a very last argument, 13.02.2010, 19:05 Uhr, Marcus Buck
admitted:

   I hereby admit, that I have a hard time understanding Dutch Low
   Saxon, especially when spoken (so ruling out orthography as the
   main reason). That somehow contradicts my expressed belief, that
   Low Saxon is one language. But the fact, that my ability to
   understand improves when the speaking person is older and if the
   recording is older, indicates, that intensified Dutch influence
   makes the language harder to understand. I guess prosody is
   involved in this too.

Could it be that it is you, to /overestimate/ - in the case of
"Nedersaksisch" in Netherlands - the possible ethnical background of the
speakers concerned? Trying to enlarge the differences of (continental) Saxon
follow-up idioms to the Nether-Francish ones? (Thereby overstressing the
ethnical background of the Saxon language family?). Whilst I see the
fundamental bifurcation (junction) coming from the Old High German consonant
shift, and perceiving the Low Francish follow-ups closer to the Saxon ones.
On the other hand, today's successors of this common language family are of
course very differenciated in regional idioms. _But without a special,
semifundamental bifurcation within this family between "Saxon" and "Low
Fracish" ones._/
/

That's what I meant with Low German (&Netherlandish) dialect continuum./
/

I can understand the Saxon dialects of the German border regions (if the
speaker speaks at a pace not too hasty and doesn't use too much
contractions). I can understand some speakers from the Dutch Low Saxon
regions. But many Dutch Low Saxon speakers I cannot understand. Supposedly
due to differences in the language that are induced by the Dutch standard
language.
I don't know whether I would understand speakers of the Low Frankish
dialects cause I heard too few so far.

I cannot tell whether I over- or underestimate the relevance of  the
Germanic tribes for todays language landscape. But facts suggest that I have
to estimate them.  The southern border of the Low Saxon language in Hesse is
very sharp and its almost identical to the former border between Franks and
Saxons. The language border between Westfalia and the Rhineland too is
clearly trackable in isogloss maps and corresponds with the Franko-Saxon
border. In the west cities like Nijmegen and Utrecht are known to be
Frankish in old times while the Twente region is known to be Saxon in old
times. And again there are many isoglosses that run between them. I have
absolutely no doubts that "Franks vs Saxons" is relevant for todays
dialects. Of course there are many lingustic innovations that crossed the
border. It's not like the dialects on both sides of the former Franko-Saxon
border are totally different. They are quite similar due to common
innovations. But a bifurcation is present. Einheitsplural is the most
prominent Saxon feature and the isogloss for Einheitsplural runs along the
bifurcation line, the Eem-Veluwe-IJssel line. The isogloss for reduced past
participle (Dutch 'ge-' vs Low Saxon 'e-' or '-') runs along the
Eem-Veluwe-IJssel. Umlaut in the word Frankish hoovd vs Low Saxon heuvd does
too. The isogloss for Frankish krijgt vs Low Saxon kriggt runs along the
Veluwe-IJssel line. And many other isoglosses do.

The isogloss bundle is not as important as the one between Low Saxon and
German in Hesse, but it clearly is a relevant dividing line.

Marcus Buck

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