LL-L "Language varieties" 2010.02.18 (02) [EN-NDS]

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L O W L A N D S - L - 18 February 2010 - Volume 02
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From: Joachim <soz-red at jpberlin.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2010.02.18 (01) [EN-NDS]

Dag Nidderland-Düüdsk prauters,

Am 17.02.2010 um 17:08 scraif Jonny Meibohm:

In other words: the vocable 'somstiid' is from the German type of Middle Low
Saxon and could have been different in NL.


In de hollänske Deux-Aes-Bijbel ("Emder Bibel") van 1562 - sü den Link
http://www.bijbelsdigitaal.nl/view.php?bible=deuxa1562)

het dat: "somtijts". Is alsau nich blaut norddüütsk orr nederlandsk, sunnern
beyds (of auk - as ~ziits - in owerländisk düütsk hewwe ik nu nich
naukekt).

 Perhaps we shouldn't throw out the baby with the bath water and keep the
old linguistic terms alive - 'somstiids' they may be useful.


Dår stimme ik heyl un ganss tou, man ås "sumtiits / somtiits" (sunder
tüsken-s). Un wen dat tiitlike genetiv-s stört, kan auk "sumtiiden,
somtiiden" scriiwen of seggen. (Wou dat nowwe lutt hadde, kan ik nig seggen,
dår de Toun-upnamen van miinen oustfreysken antkevaar nig up MacOSX nig meer
afspelbar siint …)

Ümme di, Jonny, dat beld aftorunnen, in Lübbens Mnd. HWB fint sik:

*sum, som:* irgend einer; *neutr.* irgend etwas; *Plur.* some, summe,
einige, *oft unfl.* som, sum.
*summeli**k* = sum.
*sum-tides, -tiden, -tît,* zuweilen.
*sum-wile, -wilen, -wiles,* zuweilen.

In'n hüüdigen Standard-NL het et:

*somtijds & somwijlen:* manchmal

Hellinckx Luc scraif:

Just look at the map here:
http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bestand:Aldietsterritorium.png
And cut off the southern half of Belgium btw ;=).
A new Chile has been born with Hamburg as Nueva Santiago and Ron starring as
Allende.
Moreover, Scotland will be like the Chilean claim in Antarctica and not
surprisingly, Chile has the best credit ratings in Latin America. Yes, yes.


… or Ron starring as New Bonifaz, this time with the mission to teach modern
Saxon ;-)

Helge Tietz scraif:

So although the national border between the Netherlands and Northern Germany
is artificial to draw a border on the southern extends of Low Franconian
speach would be equally as artificial.


Dank di Helge, dat du dat auk befestiges.

Am 17.02.2010, 22:04 screif Marcus Buck:

relevance of  the Germanic tribes for todays language landscape. But facts
suggest that I have to estimate them.  The southern border of the Low Saxon
language in Hesse is very sharp and its almost identical to the former
border between Franks and Saxons. The language border between Westfalia and
the Rhineland too is clearly trackable in isogloss maps and corresponds with
the Franko-Saxon border. In the west cities like Nijmegen and Utrecht are
known to be Frankish in old times while the Twente region is known to be
Saxon in old times. And again there are many isoglosses that run between
them. I have absolutely no doubts that "Franks vs Saxons" is relevant for
todays dialects. Of course there are many lingustic innovations that crossed
the border. It's not like the dialects on both sides of the former
Franko-Saxon border are totally different.


Jau, dat fiine ik gout, wat du dår ållens for linguistiske fiinheyden
ruutfiins! Ik hewwe je auk segt, dat et dår velle verscillenheden gift, in
de tungen un tallen. Ik wil auk wual inseynen, dat dår un dår - wou
verstrikt auk jümmers - unnersceyde van (ethniske) stämme van vor duusent
jåren no met rinspelt. Blaut: wat wåren de Sassen? Sau wiit ås ik liäsen
hewwe, was dat es en tiitwiilig (laut us grof seggen 500 jår) en lause (un
wessenlde) vereenigung van stämmen btw. eddeln, anförern un striitmannen met
den "sahs". Un met horses, dårümme de wappen van "Niddersassen" un
Westfålen.

They are quite similar due to common innovations. But a bifurcation is
present. Einheitsplural is the most prominent Saxon feature and the isogloss
for Einheitsplural runs along the bifurcation line, the Eem-Veluwe-IJssel
line.


Un wårvan kümp de plural (präsens) up -en of -en/-et/-en in't Lübiske,
deylen van Niddersassen, Sleswig-Holsteen, Mäkelnborg etc.? ållet Franken? -
Un de ünnersceyt "us"/"uns" un derliiken in Norddüütsklant kümp auk no
dårtou.

The isogloss for reduced past participle (Dutch 'ge-' vs Low Saxon 'e-' or
'-') runs along the Eem-Veluwe-IJssel. Umlaut in the word Frankish hoovd vs
Low Saxon heuvd does too. The isogloss for Frankish krijgt vs Low Saxon
kriggt runs along the Veluwe-IJssel line. And many other isoglosses do.


De isoglossen siint in sum giigenden (ås in den Rhiinsken Fäcker) sau
tallriik un verworren, dat ik dår swårlik en bifurkatsi druut erseynen kan.
Wan du dat ållens sau gout kenst, dan maak dår maul en strektall-kårte met
de tou-orneng to "Sassesk" un "(Nidder-)frankesk" 'rtou. Man dan auk no 'ne
kårte üäwer dat diiner meening nau "Sasseske" gebeyden, met 'ne insichtige
analyse van de luutlike distans un naigte.

*Miin reden is je nig, dat et an den würkelk of vermeentliken snauts tüsken
meer Sassesk un meer Nidderfrankesk nin ünnersceyt gift, man dat de nich
grötter siin ås dey tüsken verscillene strektallen up "sassesken" gebeyt.*

 Met echt-westfœlsken »Goutgaun!«
joachim
--
Kreimer-de Fries
Osnabrügge => Berlin-Pankow



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