LL-L "History" 2010.07.12 (02) [EN]

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*L O W L A N D S - L - 12 July 2010 - Volume 02*
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From: Elsa Primo <elsa_primo at yahoo.com>

Subject: LL-L "History" 2010.07.11 (02) [EN]



Mecklenburg had its own flag after WWII which was one of 14 DEPARTMENTAL
'ENSIGNS" which composed GERMANY...If I am not mistaken, it was a RED CROSS
on a BLUE BACKGROUND? TWO-COLORS ONLY. Just like ICELAND but without the
white background. Is that correct? I was told if we want to find out
definitively anything about FLAGS in general to ask James Ferrigan at the
FLAG CENTER in SANTA CRUZ CALIFORNIA, he is one of the world's leading
authorities on the matter of NEW FLAGS.



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From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>

Subject: LL-L "History" 2010.07.11 (02) [EN]



From: Jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>

Subject: LL-L "History" 2010.07.11 (01) [EN]



If you read one of the links Marcus gave us you'll find the argument that
the German semi-province of Eastern Frisia doesn't feel comfortable itself
with any Saxon symbols like a horse. And that is probably the community with
the greatest number of Low Saxon speakers in Germany.



It certainly is the region with the highest _density_ of Low Saxon speakers,
but it is not the region with the greatest number of speakers. Eastern
Frisia has less than 500.000 inhabitants. The overall number of Low Saxon
speakers in Germany is about 3 million. So it's just 10 to 15% of the total.

 The same could be valid for our closely neighboured Wurt-Frisians as well
as for the Northern Frisians in Schleswig-Holstein. And what about the (as
you named them some weeks ago...) "colonial" ;-) provinces with speakers of
LS - as Mecklenburg in special?



So I think these more neutral heraldic (or [German:] 'Vexillologie' - never
heard this word before) should not become overloaded by symbols of the type
others than Saxons can't identify themselves with.



I have never heard about any Wurt-Frisian identity.

About the east: Mecklenburg is not part of the traditional home areas of the
Saxon tribe. In the times when the Saxons were an independent tribe
Mecklenburg was still Slavic. But lateron Mecklenburg was settled by Saxons
from Holstein and Westfalia mainly. They brought with them their Saxon
culture and language and Slavic culture and language became subdued. The
Mecklenburgians also referred to their language by the term "sassisch" in
former times. In the 16th century their self-designation was either
"düdesch" (which was a catch-all term for Dutch, German and Low Saxon) or
"sassisch" (which was used when they wanted to make the distinction to Dutch
and German).

The Frisians may not universally "connect" to the Saxon horse, but what's
the alternative from a symbolism point-of-view?

The alternatives are basically "more" or "less". "more" means to include
additional symbols that represent the different Frisian regions, the
Sleswigians, the different eastern territories, etc. That'll be neutral, but
who wants to hoist a rug rag? Wikimedia Commons has some images of Anaram au
Patac protests for Occitan linguistic rights where activists have flags with
the Occitan cross (
<http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:L%27occitan_a_l%27esc%C3%B2la.jpg><http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:L%27occitan_a_l%27esc%C3%B2la.jpg>).
Can you imagine the same with a combo flag that features a dozen different
symbols? (Look at this coat of arms to see an extreme example:
<http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Grenville_Diptych_edit2.jpg><http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Grenville_Diptych_edit2.jpg>).
If you want to identify with a flag the flag should contain a single main
symbol (or be a symbol itself [e.g. a tricolore]).

The second alternative is "less". That means no Saxon horse, no symbol at
all. That'll be neutral, but if you want that, then you should go with the
real "no symbol at all" and not have a flag.

The Noordlandflagg at the moments opts for symbolism and has chosen the
symbols of Scandinavia and the former Land Oldenburg. In my opinion the
Saxon horse symbolizing the Saxons is far superior over the
Scandinavia/Oldenburg symbols.

The flag that I created in the discussion at
<http://nds-nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedie:Praotkefee/Archief/2#Nedersaksische_vlagge.3F><http://nds-nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedie:Praotkefee/Archief/2#Nedersaksische_vlagge.3F>also
features a Hanseatic cog and a castle:
<http://nds-nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ofbeelding:Sassenflagg4.png><http://nds-nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ofbeelding:Sassenflagg4.png>.
The cog as a symbol for the Hanseatic League is clearly a symbol that _any_
Low Saxon region can identify with.

Marcus Buck



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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>

Subject: History

Whatever it’s worth, I’m pretty much on the same page with you in this
matter, Marcus. The horse is *the* tribal Saxon symbol, and it is even
featured in the old Saxon-dominated area of southeastern England (Kent).

But I also agree with Paul’s dislike of “fussiness.” I’m most certainly not
in favor of a million symbols (and colors) flying around on a single flag,
especially when most people aren’t even sure what they are and what they
represent. Usually, the simpler the design the more I tend to like it. Take
the Japanese flag, for instance. It’s “powerfully simple.”

If it be a horse, then it ought to be large and simple, and there should be
just one solid background color. It doesn’t have to be the usual red. It
could be green (for the land) or, to be different, gray (for sky and water
...).

So if flags are boring (to go by Sandy), let’s mix it up some and make
it *simple
and different*!

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA



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