LL-L "Vexillology" 2010.07.24 (02) [EN]

Sat Jul 24 21:47:10 UTC 2010

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*L O W L A N D S - L - 24 July 2010 - Volume 02
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From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>

Subject: LL-L "Vexillology" 2010.07.24 (01) [EN]

From: Michael Everson <everson at evertype.com>

On 24 Jul 2010, at 00:10, Lowlands-L List wrote:

> And recognised as such. A cross or any other religious symbol is just not
a good for a flag in my opinion. Where I"m from, we had Saxon speaking
muslims (if all the kids speak Saxon, what do you do...). I'm sure they
would take offence.

Why? Do they complain about the flags in Denmark, Sweden, Finland, Norway,
Iceland, the Faeroes? What about the non-Nordic crosses used in the UK and
Cornwall. Should those folks all abandon their flags? Hmpf.

It's one thing to accept imperfections established by history and it's a
whole nother thing to create new imperfections.

Marcus Buck

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From: Henry Pijffers <henry.pijffers at gmail.com>

Subject: LL-L "Vexillology" 2010.07.24 (01) [EN]

Michael Everson skreev:

Ik skreev:

> And recognised as such. A cross or any other religious symbol is just not
a good for a flag in my opinion. Where I"m from, we had Saxon speaking
muslims (if all the kids speak Saxon, what do you do...). I'm sure they
would take offence.

Why? Do they complain about the flags in Denmark, Sweden, Finland, Norway,
Iceland, the Faeroes? What about the non-Nordic crosses used in the UK and
Cornwall. Should those folks all abandon their flags? Hmpf.

The difference is, the people in all the places you mentioned are all used
to their cross flags and don't think about it (like I never gave the Dutch
or Twente flags any thought). For people overhere, it would be new, so they
would probably think about the symbolism more.

And what's so awful about "offence", anyway?

Offended people put themselves outside your targeted group. If pëople take
offence at your flag, you will have missed your goal, at least partially.

cheers,
Henry

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From: Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>

Subject: LL-L "Vexillology" 2010.07.24 (01) [EN]

Hi All!

Subject: LL-L "Vexilology"

I have been following this flag-string with one eye from the first, & with
very mixed feelings, for it is a sore point in my country. The pressure to
satisfy all parties down this way means that all our flags have been rather
doggy. What can one expect, when all union to speak of was establised by
conquest, & restitution achieved with calculated contempt of ethnicity?

I can only warn all interested parties that trying to be all things to all
men violates not only the design but the spirit of the thing. If the flag
embraces only one small faction, whatever it may be, then so be it! I might
add that a march-past of a hundred standard-bearers waving the self-same
bunting strikes me as the epitome of tedium, if not a threat of something
worse. But hold, what about a hundred men wielding a hundred different,
distinctive flags? Suddenly you have a parade, if not a carnaval! & suddenly
you have a visceral layout of the locale's cultural foison plenty. Isn't
that worth cultivating? To each his own, & having different neighbours makes
you special in your own way, as much as they.

Further to the point, Ron, I agree with you that The Cross in any style
carries with it a melancholy baggage. But the burden is more & greater the
horrors that factions of the Prince of Peace worked upon each other than
that they committed against the 'lesser breeds without the Law' (Kipling). &
the other easy alternative, various evolutions of the Tricolour embracing
Humanist values, calls to mind other opressions, by omission & also by
commission.

Yes, Charlemagne did convert our Saxon forebears at point of sword, but let
us not suppose that they were peaceable milquetoasts without animus to
anybody - well, maybe selectively, but I fail to identify with the honour of
being selected as a human sacrifice to an oak-tree, however great. Another
hearty pack of heathens were the Vikings, & when one considers what they did
across their frontiers, a king of that time would be wise & good on his
subjects' behalves, to settle with such deadly neighbours in some effective
way. I suppose the survivors preferred to be peaceable Christians than dead
warriors. Remember, Ron, that white horse is not running or fleeing, it is
charging! It is not easy to judge fairly out of the context of one's Times &
Circumstances.

For my part, Guys, I say as the hair begins standing up my back, I go with
the white horse on a green field, or to blazon it correctly, 'Vert a Charger
Argent'. & I would look to my right & left, before & behind me & expect each
of my fellows to blazoning something different. Vive la difference!

Groete,

Mark

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>

Subject: Vexillology

Some tidbits of internationally lesser-known history pertaining to some
countries that feature crosses on their flags:

·    From 1000 until 1852 there were no Jews in Norway because Jews and
other non-Christians where banned from the country.

·    With the conclusion of the Danish Reformation in 1536, Jews and
Catholics were prohibited entry into Denmark. Prior to that, no Jews seem to
have lived in Denmark, and the attitude was pretty much like that in
(Danish-ruled) Norway: “No non-Christians please.” In 1628, the presence of
Portuguese Jews along the lower Elbe (in today’s Northern Germany)
necessitated a legal amendment to give residence permits to certain Jews in
certain areas then under the Danish crown.

·    In 1680 the Jews of Stockholm petitioned the king that they be
permitted to reside there without abandoning their creed, but the
application was denied because the local consistory had refused to endorse
it. On December 3, 1685, Charles XI ordered the governor-general of the
capital to see that no Jews were permitted to settle in Stockholm and in any
other part of the country, "on account of the danger of the eventual
influence of the Jewish religion on the pure evangelical faith." In case
Jews were found in any Swedish community, they were to be notified to leave
within fourteen days. Jews and Muslims moving to Sweden had to convert to
Christianity to be allowed to stay. Swedish Jews that evaded conversion
received equal status with other Swedes as late as in 1910 (i.e. 100 years
ago).

·    Few Jews moved to Iceland. Those that did had to at least outwardly
assimilate, such as by taking on Icelandic names. In granting Icelandic
residence permits during the Great Depression in the 1930s, Christian
Scandinavians and Germans were given preference to Jews from the same
countries. Even during and soon after World War II Jewish refugees were not
welcome in Iceland, and the local press portrayed them as bothersome ragtag
exotics that needed to be kept out.

·    Jews were expelled from England in 1290, following various attacks on
them, especially the massacres of London and York (1189–1190).

·    Jews were banished from Swiss towns in the 1620s, and from 1776 they
were allowed to reside exclusively in two villages. Legal freedom was
granted to all religious communities in Switzerland no earlier than in 1874.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

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