LL-L "Language varieties" 2010.03.22 (01) [EN]

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From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at fleimin.demon.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2010.03.21 (02) [EN]



> From: jmtait <jmtait at wirhoose.co.uk>
> Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2010.03.21 (01) [EN]
>

> Yes.' Precious and Puggies' translated by James Robertson, whose view
> that Scots is a language that writers turn to when they wish to use
> its 'less-than-respectable status ... a refuge for linguistic
> individualism, anarchism, nomadism and hedonism'  I was requested, by
> the Shetland dialect promoters, not to criticise!

This is writing from a restricted viewpoint: a narrow, avant-garde
viewpoint. There's also such a thing as translating traditional texts,
and a translator would like his Scots to reflect the traditional values
of the source text if possible!

Avant-garde is so passé!  :)

Sandy Fleming
http://scotstext.org/

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From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at fleimin.demon.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2010.03.20 (02) [EN]

> From: jmtait <jmtait at wirhoose.co.uk>
> Subject: LL-L "Names" 2010.03.18 (08) [EN]
>
> Yes - but what people are called in a specialised situation far away
> from home can't be called 'normal.' Sheltie is a form which has been
> coined by outsiders, not by Shetlanders, as the metathesis of t and l
> (Shelt- rather than 'Shetl-) might further suggest. I would seriously
> advise against coming to Shetland and referring to the inhabitants as
> 'Shelties'!

That's true. A sheltie is a horse, even as a central Scot, it seems
ridiculous to me to call a person a "Sheltie"!

> Actually there is no problem with a word to describe people from
> Shetland - they are known as 'Shetlanders'. The problem I'm talking
> about arises in that there is no readily available word to describe
> whatever it is they traditionally speak, because there is no separate
> adjectival form from 'Shetland' as there is from, say, England
> (English), Orkney (Orcadian) or Glasgow (Glaswegian).

This whole argument, seemingly based on the idea that "we don't have a
term for it so we can't invent one" seems rather an old-school approach
to language.

When I was learning Icelandic and Czech, the usual remark from people
was, "What? Is there such a language?" (this was back in the 1980's). It
just means it's time to educate them about it. I would have no trouble
with using "Shetlandic" and then discussing it with whoever inquires. If
they didn't accept the term then I would put the onus on them to suggest
a better one, because it's something I want to be able to talk about.

> First, it's not unusual for internal areas in the UK not to have
> specific adjectival forms. Some do - Cornish, Glaswegian, Orcadian,
> Liverpudlian, etc - and some don't seem to (or at least not ones that
> come easily to mind) - Yorkshire? Somerset? Edinburgh?  Shetland.
> Which ones do and which ones don't seems to be almost accidental.

So what? There are big trends in English these days towards more
productive use of the lexicon, with people saying things like "Are you
Whitbying this year?", "I'm not deaf, I'm a hearie" and so on.
"Shetlandic" isn't exactly without precedent (Icelandic, Greenlandic,
Turkic). Assuming you're aware of the dialects/language, you'd have to
be deliberately pretending if you said you didn't understand the term.

> The problem with this expression is that, whereas it sounds perfectly
> natural when you are speaking the native tongue itself, it does not
> translate well into standard English. To write about 'Speaking

This is just blurring the issue. We don't need a term that can be used
in two languages (or dialects) at once, we're talking about a term we
can use in English. A separate term can be used in "dialect", there's no
need to bring them together.

> than an entity? The semantic problems are not thereby solved; and even
> if The Shetland Dialect were satisfactory in, say, academic usage, it
> is too cumbersome an expression to use in everyday writing - by, for
> example, an organisation which is writing about it frequently, like
> ShetlandForWirds. Therefore, it tends to be reduced to 'dialect.'

Of course they're solved. You could use "Shetlandic" or even just
"Shetland" in English. However much they want to calcify the terminology
in Shetland, it's fine for us outside.

> The need for an expression to describe the tongue in standard English
> has probably been felt for a long time. The word 'Shetlandic' goes
> back at least as long as the 20th Century. However, because it has
> never been used for anything other than the tongue (because 'Shetland'
> is the natural adjective, as with 'Yorkshire') it has never become a
> part of normal usage. This is probably because of several factors:

The need by who? We've never had any trouble with it on this list, not
even in the days when it came up often.

I'd put it to you that this is a problem created by people who don't
want a solution. There's no actual problem.

>    Examples can again be found in the thread on Shetlink started by
>  Michael Everson. One correspondent said that the term Shetlandic was
> an attempt to make the speech look Nordic, and was offputting because
>  it was 'obviously political.' Michael pointed out that only a small
>  number of the Nordic tongues have endings in -ic, and I pointed out
> that terms like 'dialect' are political as well - it's just that they
> express the political views of the establishment whereas 'Shetlandic'
>  challenges those views. Unfortunately, when these facts are pointed
> out, the originators of the comments do not continue the conversation.

Yes, but this is a normal feature of Internet discourse. Like many of
the problems you mention, it's not specific to Shetland language issues.
The problems you bring up also happen to a great extent with Scots. I'd
suggest that it's up to each individual to have their target and aim for
it.

Sandy Fleming
http://scotstext.org/

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 From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties



Sandy writes above:



Yes, but this is a normal feature of Internet discourse. Like many of
the problems you mention, it's not specific to Shetland language issues.



Quite so. In the experience of several of us, those individuals or
organizations that present themselves not only as the owners of a given
minority language or dialect but also as their representatives very often
dismiss dissenting viewpoints by characterizing these as coming from
outsiders, even “intruders,” who cannot possibly understand the local
situation, or who are out of touch if they have moved away from the area.
They do so even in cases of more general, more scientific arguments in which
precedents are presented. Actually, they tend to do so *especially* then,
and their final retreat is in emotional “arguments” and the claim that the
case of their language/dialect cannot be compared with others. While this
phenomenon may not be new, it has never before been occurring with such
visibility and frequency and on so large a scale as in our time. In the past
it tended to be confined to academia, usually in printed publications, while
nowadays Internet forums, most of which are global after all, are accessible
to people of pretty much all walks of life and educational backgrounds.



I'd put it to you that this is a problem created by people who don't
want a solution. There's no actual problem.



Amen, Brother!



At the same time, I can certainly see how after a while one would get tired
of this sort of thing.



Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA



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