LL-L "Grammar" 2011.05.03 (01) [DE-EN-NDS]
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L O W L A N D S - L - 03 May 2011 - Volume 01
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From: Leslie Decker leslie at familydecker.org
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.05.02 (06) [EN]
FWIW, I seem to remember Czech doing the same thing, and a quick look at
some jokes websites confirms this: Přijde muž z hospody a říká manželce: (
(there) comes a man from the pub and says to his wife).
Leslie Decker
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From: Theo Homan theohoman at yahoo.com
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.05.02 (06) [EN]
From: R. F. Hahn
<sassisch at yahoo.com<http://uk.mc286.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=sassisch@yahoo.com>>
Subject: Grammar
Thanks, Luc and Henry!
In Low Saxon (of Germany) and also in many if not most non-standard German
dialects, this same construction (VS instead of usual SV) is used to convey
conditionality (if/when); e.g. Low Saxon:
Gah ik so up de Straat, gluupt de Lüd' mi an.
("Go I thusly on(to) the street, stare the people me at")
People stare at me when(ever) I go outside (looking) like this. ~
People will stare at me if I go outside (looking) like this.
[...]
What do you think, Lowlanders?
Hi,
I don't think that much.
But this construction goes back to germanic roots, and has mainly survived
in spoken language [that selden was transformed in ink-appearance].
In good, old days [when everybody was still happy] this construction was
especially known from Amsterdam / yiddish/jewish jokes.
When in conversation someone said: 'Rijdt een fiets op de stoep...', then 9
out of 10 times you espected a joke to follow.
But also in everyday-talk this construction was a common feature:
'Loop ik in de van Woustraat, schreeuwt er ineens een man...'.
vr. gr.
Theo Homan
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From: Mike Morgan mwmbombay at gmail.com
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.05.02 (06) [EN]
Okay, no Verb-initial sentences to be heard around here (native Indian
languages all --at least to my knowledge-- being verb final languages), but
thought I might interject comments on a word-order specific trait of Indian
English here.
In questions with question words (aka content questions), whereas "standard"
Englishes "move" the question word to initial position AND then the verb
(usually a "dummy" verb like 'have' or 'do') into second position, Indian
English simply moves the question word into initial position, while keeping
the rest of the sentence word order intact. Thus:
What you would like to eat?
Who you will come with?
Compared with 30 years ago when I first lived in South Asia, many features
of Idnian English are gradually being replaced by more standard forms, but
THIS is one feature that I hear quite regularly (in addition rather than to
the exclusion of "standard" forms).
As for the REASONS for the above word order/sentence structure, that is a
question. It APPEARS to NOT be a case of simple substratal influence (no
Indian language has such sturctures per se). SO, it could be:
1) implementation of HALF the standard English content-question formation
process (i.e. movement of content question word to initial position... but
without any other changes).
or
2) influence from the use of the question word "what" (which differes from
language to language) in sentence initial poisition in vernacular languages
to form YES/NO QUESTIONS (but most definitively NOT content questions).
or of course a bit of both....
I'm assuming it probably is NOT influence from the Yinglish "*Nu*, I have to
ask permission to change the channel?”
mwm || U C > || mike || мика || माईक || マイク || மாய்க் (aka Dr Michael W
Morgan)
Senior Consultant
BA in Applied Sign Language Studies (BAASLS)
Indira Gandhi National Open Univeristy
New Delhi, India
"Too often we honor swagger and bluster and wielders of force; too often we
excuse those who are willing to build their own lives on the shattered
dreams of others. ... [T]here is another kind of violence, slower but just
as deadly destructive as the shot or the bomb in the night. This is the
violence of institutions; indifference and inaction and slow decay." (Bobby
Kennedy, 5 April 1968)
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From: M.-L. Lessing marless at gmx.de
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.05.02 (06) [EN]
Dear Ron, I knew I had overlooked something -- and something so obvious as
"Kommt ein Vogel geflogen"! Shame on me! :-)) In the case of folk song texts
(there are several, "Zogen einst fünf wilde Schwäne" usw.) I had
unconsciously supposed that something had been omitted at the beginning --
e.g. "(Es) kommt ein Vogel geflogen" or "(Da) kommt ein Vogel geflogen". But
now I think you may be right and it is a deliberate construction to more
effectively pull the listener/reader into the context. Interesting that it
is so in Nederlands also!
Thanks to all,
Marlou
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From: Joachim <Osnabryg+Lowlands at googlemail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.05.03 (01) [EN]
Beste Marlou, Ron, Luc, Henry & other interesting Lowlanders,
Am 03.05.11 03:12, schrieb Reinhard/Ron:
Gah ik so up de Straat, gluupt de Lüd' mi an.
("Go I thusly on(to) the street, stare the people me at")
At first thought I assumed that this {"used to convey conditionality
(if/when)"} and what I call "narrative construction" are separate. At
second thought, however, I wonder if they are in fact related. "Setting the
stage," so to speak, the VS construction makes the listener expect a result
or at least continuation. See what I'm driving at? So, if in German you say
*Ein Mann geht zum Arzt* (A man goes to a/his doctor) it could be the end of
the story. However, if you say *Geht ein Mann zum Arzt* ("Goes a man to
a/his doctor") you definitely expect more.
What do you think, Lowlanders?
Although the cases are different in grammatical form - the first being a
conditional construction without conjunction, the second a
consecutive/copulative one - they might to be linked together in the sense
of incomplete meaning/statement in the respective first subset. Or as Luc H.
put it:
Putting the verb in front (intentionally) breaks order and adds panache,
because attention is shifting towards action. Sure way to make the audience
get involved, feel tension and start anticipating.
But I'd like to point to a further narrative connection of the simple
VS-construction in jokes: the construction with preliminary subject: there /
er (…eens) / dår, 't (…eens) / da, es (…mal), e. g.:
Da *geht/ging ein Mann zum Arzt*
Da *kommt ein Vogel geflogen*
Er *komt een man bij de dokter, zegt 'ie ...*
Neulich *komm ich nach Hause: sitzt da die Katze im Spülstein.
*Er/ 't *waren eens twee künigeskinder, … (*classical beginning of fairy
tales in many languages)
*
*In constrast *the particularity in the joke- (and comparable other) syntax
is the skipping of the prelimary subject (there, er, eens, da/es) .*
Furthermore, I have a feeling that this VS construction used to be used in
earlier varieties of English, though I can't come up with concrete examples
at this very moment. Perhaps they are not directly linked, but you find VS
in certain types of clauses, such as "'Enough!' say I (~ says I)." I assume
that these are archaisms hailing back to greater syntactic flexibility in
English.
One may call it "archaisms", but I regard it a loss of panache and phrasing
possibilities in the modern, bureaucratically and conduct regulated grammar
and styles of talking and writing.
Greater syntactic flexibility not only in older English, but in all previous
stages of Germanic languages. And in Non-Germanic languages with more
preserved grammatical (especially flection) forms, too. A topic we had about
here already when I was once lamenting the loss of grammatical forms in
today's Low Saxon (Missingsch) and Netherlands.
*The more forms are preserved, the more flexible is syntax and panache, the
richer the register of the ways of speaking.*
Met echt-westfœlsken »Goudgaun!«
joachim
--
Kreimer-de Fries
Osnabrügge => Berlin-Pankow
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From: Hannelore Hinz <hannehinz at t-online.de> <hannehinz at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2011.05.02 (06) [EN]
Un wedder heit dat:
Leiw' Lowlanners
Ron fraagt an "Wat denkt ji, Lowlanners?" (What do you think, Lowlanders?)
Ick heff nahdacht oewer Archaismen (archaisms), un will nu dit noch
vermell'n:
Bispill för Archaismen: funn'n bi DWb.VI,463: im 18.jh. sind sie (die Reime)
veraltet), "..... eine
unwitzige Art Scherzgedichte, welche ehedem bey feyerlichen Mahlzeiten sehr
üblich waren, und welche bey Gelegenheit, der Hechtleber auf die
jedesmaligen Umstände gemacht wurden z.B.: Die
Leber ist von einem ... und nicht von einem ..., wo alsdann ein Thier
genannt wird, auf dessen Namen die folg. Zeile reimen muß. -
*Archaismus *(gr. archaios alt): veralteter Ausdruck oder Sprachgebrauch,
z.B. "Wams" statt "Jacke". Bezeichnet als Klangfigur die künstlerisch
beabsichtigte Nachahmung altertümlicher Sprachformen in einem Wortkunstwerk,
das im übrigen in der herrschenden Sprache abgefaßt ist.
"Der Ausdruckswert der veralteten Sprachformen besteht darin, daß sie die
Lebensluft früherer Zeit mitbringen."* (Schneider)
*http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leberreim
*Ein Winterabend* in einem mecklenburgischen Bauernhause - Ein Bühnenstück
für niederdeutsche Lande nach alten Volksüberlieferungen zusammengestellt
von Professor Dr. h. c. Richard Wossidlo.
Hinstorffsche Verlagbuchhandlung Seestadt Wismar.
Waren, im März 1937. R. Wossidlo
*Leberreime* (auf Hochzeiten)
Auftritt *Annmriek.*
De Läwer is von'n Häkt un nich von 'n Boor,
Twischen mi un mien Feinsliebchen wassen 'n poor Roggenohr.
Die Blätter sein verwesen,
Mein Feinsliebchen hat sich eine Andere auserlesen.
Feinsliebchen, warum quälst du mich?
Ich will dich bei Gott verklagen,
Und will meinen Kranz ins Grab vertragen. (Waren)
Auftritt *Thriendüürt.*
Ich habe die Leber auf's Messer gestochen,
Ich und mein Feinsliebchen haben uns die Eh' versprochen;
Er liebt mich, ich lieb ihn wieder.
Er hat drei vergüllte Buchstaben in mein Herze geschrieben,
Die erste heißt a, das ist die liebe Ja,
Und die andere heißt o,
Wenn ich ihn seh, ist mein Herz immer froh,
Und die dritte heißt s, daß ich die Liebe niemals vergeß.
Auftritt *Fiek.*
De Läwer is von 'n Häkt un nich von 'n Thymian,
Hier steiht 'n vergüllten Maieran;
Den'n ik woll begehr, dee kümmt man selten her,
Den'n ik nich vermag, dee geiht hier rümsnuben Dag un Nacht;
Dee is mi so väl nütt, as dat Water in de Pütt,
As dat föfft Rad an'n Wagen,
Wat deiht son 'n snuufrottigen Bengel na mi to fragen.
Ick wünsch alltohopen väl Freud'.
Hanne
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