LL-L "Idiomatic=?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=8Ba=22_?=2013.07.19 (01) [EN]

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 L O W L A N D S - L - 19 July 2013 - Volume 01
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From: Mike Morgan <mwmbombay at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2013.07.18 (01) [EN]

Regarding please and thank you...

Tom Mc Rae notes:
> Delancey Place quoted the following from a book..
> -- saying "please" and "thank you" is not a universal
> custom -- there are societies such as the Inuit, where it is not the case.
> Having lived in West Africa for 11 years I would question this statement.
> The old Asante Twi language has "thank you" as 'Medassi" and "Thank you
> very much" as Medassi Pi." ...

I don't see the disagreement.  After all the statement "is not
universal" does NOT equate with "is universally absent"...

The fact that use of "please" and "thank you" may "equate" in some way
with "modern western values" does NOT mean that they may not ALSO
match well with certain (even many?) non-western non-"modern"
societies and languages.

Although I have some experience in other parts of the world (including
Horn of Africa and southern part of EAST Africa), mostly I can speak
with "authority" about Asia only... and in GENERAL (though not without
exception) usage of phrases translated (tanslatable?) as "please" and
"thank you" in a wide range of languages and societies has "migrated"
towards a Western (Euro-Amerfican) model over the years (i.e. MY
lifetime). The expressions (forms used) haven't much changed (except
as noted below) but the USAGE (significance) HAS.

Take Nepali. Like most modern Indic language there is a word धन्यबाद
/dhanyabaad/ which is usually given as the translation of "thank you".
AND, if you listen to mall-attendants and 3-star restaurant
waitpersonel usage (and also by clientelle of such establishments)
nowadays, you will get the impression that it is used EXACTLY as
(American) English "Thank you".

Note however,
1) धन्यबाद is NOT Nepali, it is not an inherited Indic word going
through the normal process of linguistic changes, it is a direct
borrowing from Sanskrit. I.e. it is a 'high-falootin'/high-culture
word. And using it "shows high culture" (whatever that is!)
2) It's use even by service personel and clientelle is NEW. When I was
first in Nepal 35 years ago, one would NEVER have heard someone being
served a meal they ordered replying with धन्यबाद ! UNTHINKABLE!
धन्यबाद was something I maybe might would have used if I owed my LIFE
to someone else (e.g. if I had lost my passport AND all my cash on the
road and a Nepali had picked it up and come running after
absent-minded me to RETURN it, THEN I would certainly have said
धन्यबाद... and probab;ly fallen down, prostrating myself at to his
feet!!).
In the old days , IF ANYTHING was said, the exchange would have gone
something like this:
Wait person: लिनुस्  /linus/ (take it)
Me: ल  /la/ (ok)

There is nothing LESS polite in this... it is just a different
culture... a culture less "contaminated" by Western ways.

AND in a way it is a cheapening... after all, if someone saves my life
or if they serve me a coke, all I can do is give the SAME reply....

PS. Mumbai/Bombay NOTE
A similar development (evolution) has taken place in India also...
Though at least in Mumbai (and much of Urban india) there is STILL a
risistance among educated to equate Indic धन्यवाद /dhanyavaad/ with
"thankyou... and so in Mumbai Marathi and Gujarati and Hindi, the
tendency is to use थेंक्स /thenks/ (aspirated /t/ NOT dental fricative
/θ/

Note also that in Hindi there is the option of using Urdu /shukria/ for
"thanks"

ALSO
as far as I can think, there is STILL no equivalent for please in
Nepali ... except the borrowed Hindi कृपाया /krpaya/
we just use the appropriate verb form (imnperative, etc)... and cna
"soften" (or intensify it!) it if needed by the addition of a sentence
final partical (several options available)

 my 8 anna's worth!

mwm || *U*C> || mike || माईक || мика || マイク (aka Dr Michael W Morgan)
sign language linguist / linguistic typologist
academic adviser, Nepal Sign Language Training and Research
NDFN, Kathmandu, Nepal

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 From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2013.07.18 (01) [EN]

My nephew lives in Finland (his wife is Finnish) and their kids are
completely bilingual. But they have to keep reminding the kids to say
please and thank you when speaking English, as it's not an automatic
response in Finnish.
Paul
Derby
England


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