Caballeros aguila y caballeros tigre (fwd)

[Galen Brokaw]

Hi Michael,
It used to be that when you sent messages to Nahuat-l, you got a copy of
your own message along with everyone else. It seems that this is no
longer the case, and it kind of confused me at first, because when I
first noticed it, I thought that maybe my message never went through.
I did get your original response to Susana, but I didn't see it until I
had already sent mine to the list.
I should clarify that I am not claiming that there was no such thing as
a "cuauhteuctli" but rather that this term would probably have referred
to the leader of the order as opposed to Eagle warriors in general.
I could be wrong about this, but in my admittedly limited experience, I
have never seen the warriors from the military orders referred to in
general as "cuauhteuctli" or "oceloteuctli". The websites you point do
contain the terms "cuauhtecuhtli" and "ocelotecuhtli," but almost all of
them are reproductions of the same poem and historical introduction that
form part of a character role play game of the dungeons and dragons
type, and the one or two other instances on other pages give no
documentary source. Even so, the author of the role-play game, evidently
a guy named Alejandro Melchor, uses the term "cuauhtecuhtli" to refer
only to the leader of the military order, and the historical explanation
that appears after the poem uses the term "cuacuauhtzin" to refer to the
Eagle warriors in general, which is consistent with what I was saying
before. In this respect, I think the guy who created this game and its
characters is very well informed.
In English, the name of the warriors is translated as "Eagle knight,"
which is consistent with the Spanish translation of "cabellero aguila".
So, I would argue that the term caballero in the Spanish translation is
based on the fact that this person is a warrior/knight/soldier rather
than a "teuctli." And so, I would still maintain that the correct
retranslation of "caballero aguila" would be merely "cuauhtli."
Have I convinced you?
Galen







Michael Mccafferty wrote:
> See:
>
> http://www.dogpile.com/info.dogpl/search/web/cuauhtecuhtli
>
>
> On Wed, 19 Nov 2003, Michael Mccafferty wrote:
>
>
>>Earlier today i wrote Susana something to the effect that if by
>>"caballero," she meant "man," that would be of course oquichtli, even
>>tlacatl. Moteuczoma is called "tlacatl Moteuczoma" in the Florentine.
>>And by that his subjects weren't saying just any old dude.
>>
>>That said,  I also mentioned that in the case of the eagle and jaguar
>>warriors, teuctli,  commonly and obliquely written *tecuhtli, is probably
>>what she is after.
>>
>>Michael
>>
>>
>
>