Caballeros aguila y caballeros tigre (fwd)

[Michael Mccafferty]

Great. Thanks, Galen.



On Wed, 19 Nov 2003, Galen Brokaw wrote:

> Hi Michael,
> It used to be that when you sent messages to Nahuat-l, you got a copy of
> your own message along with everyone else. It seems that this is no
> longer the case, and it kind of confused me at first, because when I
> first noticed it, I thought that maybe my message never went through.
> I did get your original response to Susana, but I didn't see it until I
> had already sent mine to the list.
> I should clarify that I am not claiming that there was no such thing as
> a "cuauhteuctli" but rather that this term would probably have referred
> to the leader of the order as opposed to Eagle warriors in general.
> I could be wrong about this, but in my admittedly limited experience, I
> have never seen the warriors from the military orders referred to in
> general as "cuauhteuctli" or "oceloteuctli". The websites you point do
> contain the terms "cuauhtecuhtli" and "ocelotecuhtli," but almost all of
> them are reproductions of the same poem and historical introduction that
> form part of a character role play game of the dungeons and dragons
> type, and the one or two other instances on other pages give no
> documentary source. Even so, the author of the role-play game, evidently
> a guy named Alejandro Melchor, uses the term "cuauhtecuhtli" to refer
> only to the leader of the military order, and the historical explanation
> that appears after the poem uses the term "cuacuauhtzin" to refer to the
> Eagle warriors in general, which is consistent with what I was saying
> before. In this respect, I think the guy who created this game and its
> characters is very well informed.
> In English, the name of the warriors is translated as "Eagle knight,"
> which is consistent with the Spanish translation of "cabellero aguila".
> So, I would argue that the term caballero in the Spanish translation is
> based on the fact that this person is a warrior/knight/soldier rather
> than a "teuctli." And so, I would still maintain that the correct
> retranslation of "caballero aguila" would be merely "cuauhtli."
> Have I convinced you?
> Galen
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> Michael Mccafferty wrote:
> > See:
> >
> > http://www.dogpile.com/info.dogpl/search/web/cuauhtecuhtli
> >
> >
> > On Wed, 19 Nov 2003, Michael Mccafferty wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Earlier today i wrote Susana something to the effect that if by
> >>"caballero," she meant "man," that would be of course oquichtli, even
> >>tlacatl. Moteuczoma is called "tlacatl Moteuczoma" in the Florentine.
> >>And by that his subjects weren't saying just any old dude.
> >>
> >>That said,  I also mentioned that in the case of the eagle and jaguar
> >>warriors, teuctli,  commonly and obliquely written *tecuhtli, is probably
> >>what she is after.
> >>
> >>Michael
> >>
> >>
> >
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