ihcequi doing it=?windows-1252?Q?=92s_?=applicative thing
SASAKI Mitsuya
hawatari21centuries at gmail.com
Wed Nov 2 02:59:31 UTC 2011
Jonathan,
I found your point on Sierra Norte de Puebla Nahuatl very stimulating.
We tend to assume that causatives and passives are opposite in nature,
but sometimes they parallel in that they imply that the denoted
resulting event is caused by someone other than the matrix subject.
The cross-varietal typology of detransitivization will be a hot topic,
and there should have been variety even within what's been called
"Classical Nahuatl". Of course, we can't ignore the Spanish influence
(e.g. Jorgé Suárez 1977) and the diachronic loss of polysynthesis.
Mitsuya SASAKI
The Department of Linguistics, the University of Tokyo
ll116003 at mail.ecc.u-tokyo.ac.jp
(2011/11/02 11:25), Jonathan Amith wrote:
> There is a whole lot that can be done on transitivity in Nahuatl, though
> I think that valency changes are often somewhat “language specific”
> considering that Nahuatl is a group of closely related languages with a
> shallow history. Questions of valency reduction, in particular, are not
> very well studied. And even causatives and applicatives are
> understudied, particularly in regard to semantics, as most studies are
> simply morphological in nature. For example, in the Sierra Norte de
> Puebla a causative with a nonreferential human object is used,
> basically, like a “passive” with a nonreferential agent.
>
> Nitoto:nia yehwa ika niknemilihtok nimote:ta:li:lti:ti pahti.
>
> I have a fever and that’s way I’m thinking about going to get injected
> with medicine (estoy pensando ir para que me apliquen/se me aplique
> medicina)
>
> In the one example of ihseki it is basically an anticausative, thought
> it seems like this might be the only example of this verb so used.
>
> Anyway, in terms of detransitivizing there is also a whole range of
> strategies, particularly with verbs like ihseki that imply some degree
> of agentivity.
>
> Reflexively marked:Note in Balsas Nahuatl nochi:wa, notsakwa
>
> a > i:Note in Sierra Norte de Pueblachi:wi, tsakwi
>
> use of –tok as a stative or resultative:Note in Balsas
>
> kweptok (it is different)In Sierra Norte de Puebla there is kwepi, not
> found in Balsas
>
> a:ntok it is adjoining
>
> The anticausative in the modern Nahuatl that I know, however, cannot
> express the agent obliquely whereas with the antipassive the patient can
> be obliquely expressed:
>
> nontlate:mo:s ika nowa:kax‘I will go searching the plains for my cattle’
>
> cf.nikontehte:mo:s nowa:kaxsimilar though the first example focuses more
> on the event itself.
>
>
>
> On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 9:03 PM, SASAKI Mitsuya
> <hawatari21centuries at gmail.com <mailto:hawatari21centuries at gmail.com>>
> wrote:
>
> Piyali Jonathan,
>
> The example of "ihcequi" John presented from FC11 is used as an
> intransitive, though it looks like an anticausative verb, i.e. "to
> be toasted".
> Here "ihcequi" is juxtaposed with "mone:loa" (to be mixed) and
> "moteci" (to be ground). "Ihcequi" here is undoubtedly intransitive,
> but its subject seems to be the thing roasted, but not the one who
> roast it.
>
> The original text is:
>
> auh injc muchichioa in icequi, yoan moneloa chia~tzotzol: nima~
> moteci: conj in cocoxquj.
> (A&D's Translation: "And it is prepared thus: when roasted and mixed
> with wrinkled _chia_, then it is ground. The sick one drinks it [in
> an infusion]") (FC 11, A&D p. 142)
>
>
> Mitsuya SASAKI
> The Department of Linguistics, the University of Tokyo
> ll116003 at mail.ecc.u-tokyo.ac.__jp
> <mailto:ll116003 at mail.ecc.u-tokyo.ac.jp>
>
> (2011/11/02 0:36), Jonathan Amith wrote:
>
> Dear list members,
> I was wondering if ihseki as an intransitive is documented and
> where.
> Best, Jonathan
> On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 9:38 AM, John Sullivan <idiez at me.com
> <mailto:idiez at me.com>
> <mailto:idiez at me.com <mailto:idiez at me.com>>> wrote:
>
> Piyali Mitsuya,
> Efectivamente, ihcequi tiene una forma tanto
> intransitiva
> [ihcequi (ihcequi). it toasts, it roasts. <ihcequi>. b.11 f.14
> p.142|)] como transitiva [ihcequi , qu- (qu-ihcequi). they
> roast
> it; they toast it. <p33- ihcequi>. b.2 f.7 p.127|].
> Y sí, ¡qué chido!
> John
>
> On Nov 1, 2011, at 7:55 AM, SASAKI Mitsuya wrote:
>
> > John,
> >
> > Thanks for the comment and the data.
> > Now the only remaining problem with this construal is that we
> have to assume two "ihcequi"'s, intransitive and transitive,
> like
> "ahci(vt/vi)".
> > Que chida academia!
> >
> > Mitsuya SASAKI
> > The Department of Linguistics, the University of Tokyo
> > ll116003 at mail.ecc.u-tokyo.ac.__jp
> <mailto:ll116003 at mail.ecc.u-tokyo.ac.jp>
> <mailto:ll116003 at mail.ecc.u-__tokyo.ac.jp
> <mailto:ll116003 at mail.ecc.u-tokyo.ac.jp>>
>
> >
> > (2011/11/01 11:50), John Sullivan wrote:
> >> Ok Mitsuya and demás listeros,
> >> Half of the temporarily constituted and soon to be
> dissolved Nahuatl morphology academy here at Notre Dame
> thinks that
> perhaps:
> >> 1. te-, “non-specific human object” + ihcequi (intransitive),
> “corn toasts or is toasted” + -ia (applicative) + -ya (imperfect
> tense suffix) = teihcequiaya, “corn was toasted for people”
> >> 2. qui, “3rd person singular specific object” + ihcequi
> (transitive), “to toast something” + ya, (imperfect tense
> suffix) =
> quihcequiya, “she was toasting it”
> >> and the other half is reluctant to make a commitment to a firm
> decision on the matter.
> >> John
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