Malacachoa

[IDIEZ]

Magnus,
	So taking malacachihui/malacachoa, etc., as an example, what is the verb of origin and how does it get to malacachtli?
John

On Mar 22, 2012, at 4:10 PM, Magnus Pharao Hansen wrote:

> My basic point that i keep trying to get across on the list is that it is necessary to take into account the phonological and morphological history of words when making etymologies. Very few of the people making etymologies here use anything more than Nahuatl dictionaries to do so - this is a shame because there is a lot of very good literature such as Canger and Dakin's historical studies that show what kinds of derivations are probable and possible and which aren't. This seems to me to be a clear example of this where we know something about the history of affixes and roots, which doesn't support the existence of a noun ma:lacachtli prior to the verb ma:lacachoa/malacachihui, but rather derved from it. 
> 
> best,
> Magnus
> 
> On 22 March 2012 18:04, Magnus Pharao Hansen <magnuspharao at gmail.com> wrote:
> John, I know there are those two nouns, I was explaining that they both historically come from the same verb form. I don't believe theycome from a noun malacachtli rather the noun malacachtli would have to come form the verbs historically. Malacachti would be the causative forms of the intransitive one of those, and yes the malacachtic adjective form would be derived from it - but they all come from original *ma:lacachiwa. I short I believe you are deriving the wrong way by going from noun to verb - rather inNahuatl it is almost always the case thatnouns are derived frm verbs and in this case there is compelling indicia that this is the case. 
> 
> You cannot derive it with malacach + ihui that suffix doesn't exist historicall but are two different suffices with different histories. The -wa/-wi is an historical ending the i is part of the precceding suffix.  
> 
> best
> Magnus
> 
> 
> On 22 March 2012 17:25, IDIEZ <idiez at me.com> wrote:
> Magnus,
>        In fact there is a ma:lacachihui and ma:lacachoa:. And what Una says makes sense. But you would have to start with an initial noun ma:lacachtli. This would be turned into a verb in two ways. One would be ma:lacachti (adding the verber "-ti") or ma:lacachtiya (adding both verbers "-ti" and "-ya"). The preterite form of either one would be ma:lacachtic and it would simultaneously work as an adjective/adverb. The other route would be to add the verber "-ihui" to the base noun, producing ma:lacachihui. The causative of this form would be ma:lacachoa: (originally, ma:lacachihua, like Una says). However, the "ch" is part of the original noun stem, not the beginning of "chihui>chihua". And I just noticed today that the root noun has a long "a" (ma:lacachtli). "malacatl" has all short vowels.
> John
> 
> On Mar 22, 2012, at 11:55 AM, Magnus Pharao Hansen wrote:
> 
> > Listeros,
> >
> > Again Canger's Five Studies leads us on the way. She shows that the -oa
> > ending comes from earlier -i:wa which means that there must have once been
> > a verb pair called *malacachi:wa (transitive) and *malacachiwi
> > (intransitive), these could be derived from malaca + chiwa "make/do"
> > through a noun incorporation. Malacachtic is obviously derived from the
> > verb.
> >
> > best,
> > Magnus
> >
> >
> > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> >> From: IDIEZ <idiez at me.com>
> >> To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> >> Cc:
> >> Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2012 20:07:06 -0600
> >> Subject: [Nahuat-l] malacachtic, malacachihui, malacachoa
> >> Piyali notequixpoyohuan,
> >>       How does malacatl get to malacachtic, malacachihui, malacachoa, if
> >> indeed this is the root? In other words, how does the ch get in there?
> >> John
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
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> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > Magnus Pharao Hansen
> > PhD. student
> > Department of Anthropology
> >
> > Brown University
> > 128 Hope St.
> > Providence, RI 02906
> >
> > *magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu*
> > US: 001 401 651 8413
> > _______________________________________________
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> > Nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> > http://www.famsi.org/mailman/listinfo/nahuatl
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Magnus Pharao Hansen
> PhD. student
> Department of Anthropology
> 
> Brown University                          
> 128 Hope St.
> Providence, RI 02906
> 
> magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu
> 
> US: 001 401 651 8413
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Magnus Pharao Hansen
> PhD. student
> Department of Anthropology
> 
> Brown University                          
> 128 Hope St.
> Providence, RI 02906
> 
> magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu
> US: 001 401 651 8413
> 

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