Nahuatl Digest, Vol 305, Issue 6

Fri Jul 26 17:25:14 UTC 2013

Lo siento pero no lo considero una derivacion probable. El uso de xihtli
como aumentativo se limita un ciertos variantes regionales y no se conoce
en la mayoria de los variantes del nahuatl, ni en la mayoria de las fuentes
coloniales. Sin embargo la palabra xi:tomatl se conoce en todos los
variantes y en todas las fuentes coloniales. Ademas como digo es claro que
en la mayoria de variantes y en la variante colonial la palabra  xi:tomatl
 tiene el primer vocal largo y no tiene aspiración glotal. Eso significa
que para creer en esa etimologia hay que primero creer que el variante de
la Huasteca donde existe esa derivacion es el variante originario de la
palabra xitomatl que despues se extendio a todos los demas variantes, y no
hay ninguna razon para pensar eso, y tambien hay que creer que la
derivacion augmentativo con "xiuh" es de gran antigüedad porque la
derivacion se tenia que extender a todos los variantes antes del tiempo
posclasico para poder explicar como la palabra se ha extendido del Nahuatl
a otros idiomas - y tampoco parece ser probable.

Me parece que estan intentando interpretar la etimologia de una palabra del
Nahuatl general y de gran antiguedad con procesos de derivacion que son
inovadoras en los variantes limitados que los tienen y que ni siquiera
explica bien el patron fonologica de la palabra. Eso no se puede considerar
mas de una etimologia popular sin peso academico.

Siempre hay que acordarse que porque una derivacion es posible y parece
plausible en su significado no significa que es real. Se requiere un
analisis riguroso comparativo que se basa en toda la evidencia y no solo en
un variante contemporaneo especifico. En este caso la evidencia completa
sugiere que no se deriva de una raiz xiuh- ni xic-.

Magnus

On 26 July 2013 13:00, <nahuatl-request at lists.famsi.org> wrote:

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> Today's Topics:
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>    1. Re: tomatl (De la Cruz)
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: De la Cruz <tepoxteco3 at hotmail.com>
> To: Famsi <nahuatl at lists.famsi.org>
> Cc:
> Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2013 06:32:34 +0000
> Subject: Re: [Nahuat-l] tomatl
> Xiuhtomatlnozo Xihtomatl
> Puede venir de xihtli/xiuhtli/xihuitl 'grande de edad o de tamaño'
> Otros ejemplos: 1. Xiuhtlacatl 'persona adulta'2. Xiuhcuahuitl 'árbol
> grande de muchos años'3. Xiuhpitzotl 'perco grande'
>
> Considero que tomatl tiene estas dos raíces.
>
>  Saludos desde Chilangondía.
>  Ma cueponi totlahtol. 'que nuestra lengua florezca'UW 'Artes Liberales'
> Victoriano de la Cruz Cruzvcruz at al.uw.edu.pl
>
>
>
> > Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2013 14:16:56 -0400
> > From: magnuspharao at gmail.com
> > To: nahuatl at lists.famsi.org
> > Subject: [Nahuat-l] tomatl
> >
> > The etymology John proposes is not viable, but has all the looks of a
> folk
> > etymology.
> >
> > The xi: in* xi:tomatl* is long, the a: in *toma:wa* is long (but I
> believe
> > this is an effect of the addition of the verbal suffix -*wa*).
> > (*toma:wi*does in fact exist but has the same intransitive meaning as
> > * toma:wa*)
> >
> > * xi:toma* "to peel to scrape" which has long i: and short a, has the
> exact
> > form we a looking for and does not require us to mysteriously drop -w- or
> > -k- as the proposed derivations with *xik*- or *xiw*- would.
> >
> > Furthermore it is the case that red tomatos differ from green tomatoes in
> > the fact that they are usually peeled before being used in Mexican
> cuisine.
> > From the green tomato only the husk is removed, but most frequently red
> > tomatoes are either boiled or toasted and peeled before being ground into
> > salsa. It could also simply mean that it doesn't have the husk as the
> green
> > tomato does, so that it is already naturally "peeled".
> >
> > So on the weight of the evidence *xitoma *is the best fit for a relation
> to
> > *xi:tomatl*.
> >
> > The problem is that 1. *xi:tomatl* also seems to be derived from
> *tomatl*.
> > 2. that we dont know is *xi:toma* is derived from *xi:tomatl *or the
> other
> > way round.
> >
> > I would propose the following solution:
> >
> > There is a root xi: that has to do with peeling. It is found in the verb
> > xi:ma "to shave, to peel, to make smooth". Karttunen enters it in her
> > dictionary as the hypothetical root *xi:p- only found as a bound morpheme
> > and with the variant xi: meaning "peeling, flaying, shaving"
> >
> > I think xi:tomatl is  derived from tomatl with that prefix. So that
> Michael
> > is right it is a tomato that is peeled.
> >
> > Best,
> > Magnus
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Magnus Pharao Hansen
> > PhD. candidate
> > Department of Anthropology
> >
> > Brown University
> > 128 Hope St.
> > Providence, RI 02906
> >
> > *magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu*
> > US: 001 401 651 8413
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-- 
Magnus Pharao Hansen
PhD. candidate
Department of Anthropology

Brown University
128 Hope St.
Providence, RI 02906

*magnus_pharao_hansen at brown.edu*
US: 001 401 651 8413
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