Name for the Western Rgyalrong languages

Thu Nov 21 12:45:59 UTC 2013

Dear Yunfan and Gyulha,

For everybody's benefit, what is the pronunciation of Siyuewu in the local
language, and is there a Tibetan spelling for it (I guess it would be
something like sŋo...).

Guillaume

2013/11/21 云帆赖 <canonnier at gmail.com>

> Dear Gyu Lha, thank you very much for your message.
>
> I have definitely heard of Siyuewu and I would very much love to know more
> about the dialect there.
>
> So let's come back to the main purpose of this forum. Gyu Lha, do you
> think Khroskyabs an appropriate name for your language?
>
> Cordially,
>
> Yunfan
>
>
>
> 2013/11/21 yina jody <abayina at gmail.com>
>
>> My address is abayina at gmail.com
>>
>>
>> 2013/11/21 yina jody <abayina at gmail.com>
>>
>>> Dear 云帆，
>>>
>>> I am Gyu Lha. Sorry your my delayed reply. I've been having some rough
>>> times with my new college life, so things are a little stressful.
>>>
>>> Anyway, I of course heard about you from my professor Scott Delancey at
>>> University of Oregon and I read your papers on Eri Township. I am a
>>> freshman at the University of Oregon and I am adjusting to life in US as
>>> well.
>>>
>>> I am not sure if you know, but I am from a village called Siyuewu that
>>> is close to where you did your research. I am very excited to learn that
>>> someone is documenting the Lavrung language.
>>>
>>> I am looking forward to hearing from you.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Best,
>>> Gyu Lha
>>>
>>>
>>> 2013/11/21 云帆赖 <canonnier at gmail.com>
>>>
>>>> Dear Guillaume and all,
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for supporting khroskyabs.
>>>> khroskyabs is pronounced [tʂʰoscæ] or [tʂʰoscæv] by Wobzi speakers.
>>>>
>>>> Is G.yu Lha in the list? Guillaume, could you let me know her email
>>>> address? I think it would be helpful for me to get in touch with her.
>>>>
>>>> Best regards,
>>>>
>>>> Yunfan
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 2013/11/20 Guillaume Jacques <rgyalrongskad at gmail.com>
>>>>
>>>>> Dear Jesse and all,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>  pronounced by my Rilong consultant) [rəsɲilonba], [lonba] of course
>>>>>> is valley, and [rəsɲi] is an alternative loconym for the valley that runs
>>>>>> along the Xianshui River, so the Daofu valley. I am still working on the
>>>>>> etymology, but that’s all I have for now. However, my consultant told me
>>>>>> that she would never say [rəsɲiske].
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> This is an interesting information. I would really like to know where
>>>>> this name comes from.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> 2. Although the proper Tibetan spelling is rTau, sTau is easy to
>>>>>> “derive” from the Tibetan spelling. Most Tibetans pronounce it as [tawu] or
>>>>>> similarly. There are many herders in the grasslands that also pronounce it
>>>>>> as [stawu]. Conversely, many Tibetans that I have talked to, some living
>>>>>> inside Daofu and others not, have spelled rTau as sTau!
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, since the languages of the group clearly distinguish between rt-
>>>>> and st-, if they pronounce this placename with a st-, the actual
>>>>> pronunciation should have precedence over the standard Tibetan spelling.
>>>>>
>>>>> Maybe we can keep Stau for the language variety (mainly) spoken in
>>>>> Rtau county; even if some villages outside of the county speak a similar
>>>>> language, this is not a damaging problem. It is very difficult to come up
>>>>> with non-ambiguous names that perfectly reflect the language situaiton. For
>>>>> instance, the name Japhug is not the best solution for designating the
>>>>> language I am studying. These people call themselves kɯrɯ and their
>>>>> language kɯrɯskɤt, and the name Japhug tɕɤpʰɯ or tɕʰɤpʰɯ (both
>>>>> pronunciatins are attested) designates the Gsarrdzong/Datshang area and
>>>>> does not include Gdongbrgyad, whose real name is sɤŋo in Japhug. However,
>>>>> people speaking Situ call them "Japhug" as a whole, and thus the name
>>>>> Japhug is not that bad for designating specifically this area.
>>>>>
>>>>> For the subgroup of Rgyalrongic comprising Stau, I is important to
>>>>> take time to as other native speakers of these languages whether 'Tre-Hor'
>>>>> is fitting or whether it is appropriate; Horske is not specific enough in
>>>>> my opinion (it could equally well designate the Horskad varieties in
>>>>> Tibet). Another possibily would be Hor-Rgyalrong or Horpa Rgyalrongic.
>>>>>
>>>>> For Geshizha, the pronunciation appears to be rgefɕe, maybe reflecting
>>>>> Dge.bshes instead of the spelling Dge.rtsa I have found elsewhere. This
>>>>> language is clearly distinct from Stau, but I am not sure which name is
>>>>> better.
>>>>>
>>>>> Khroskyabs seems to me a good alternative to Lavrung (what is the
>>>>> pronunciation of this name in Wobzi?). I would like to know what Gyulha
>>>>> thinks of it.
>>>>>
>>>>> For the Rgyalrong languages, there is little controversy, but I will
>>>>> still take some time to discuss existing names. I think it is obvious to
>>>>> everybody that Chinese-based place names like Chabao, Caodeng or Ribu are a
>>>>> bad idea: they poorly reflect the local pronounciation (being transmitted
>>>>> through the filter of Sichuan Mandarin plus Standard Mandarin plus English)
>>>>> and are unable to represent the local consonant clusters.
>>>>> Yet, for Situ I think that the Chinese name is the best solution,
>>>>> because this language is spoken on a huge area and does not appear to have
>>>>> a native or Tibetan name distinguish it as a whole from the northern
>>>>> Rgyalrong languages. So Situ is perhaps the only choice we have to
>>>>> encompass the whole area (the Tibetan equivalent would be rgyal bzhi or
>>>>> something, but it is not a good idea to invent a name that nobody
>>>>> understands). Japhug (and Tshobdun, Tawi and Zbu) people call the Situ
>>>>> speakers "roŋba" to differentiate them from themselves (while calling
>>>>> themselves "roŋwa"...), but this (as the autonym mentioned by Gyulha) is
>>>>> not specific enough to serve as a language name, otherwise all languages of
>>>>> the area could be called "rongba".
>>>>>
>>>>> For Japhug I provide a discussion above, and for Tshobdun I think
>>>>> there is no problem.
>>>>>
>>>>> For Zbu, there are some issues. The Tibetan name of the area
>>>>> Rdzong'bur seems to me to be made up/recent, while the local Rgyalrong name
>>>>> Zbu is known by everybody. It is not a perfect name, as this language is
>>>>> spread over Rdzong'bur and Tawi areas in Mbarkhams and neighbouring areas
>>>>> of Ndzamthang, but the alternative proposed by Jackson Sun, the name ɕoʁu
>>>>> in Tshobdun designating speakers of Zbu and latinized as "Showu", does not
>>>>> seem very appealing to me. Maybe Zbu-Tawi would be better to include all
>>>>> subvarieties?
>>>>>
>>>>> Concerning the capitalization, in former publications I used to write
>>>>> rGyalrong and rTau etc but now I believe that this is useless and that we
>>>>> should keep the standard capitalization: Zev is right abou that (and
>>>>> several Tibetologists have independently pointed out that they did not like
>>>>> this practice either).
>>>>>
>>>>> If some of you have contacts with Stau/Hor or Lavrung/Khroskyabs
>>>>> speaking areas, don't hesitate to contact your friends, ask their opinion,
>>>>> and post it on the list (you can even post the original message in the
>>>>> local language in IPA transcription or in Tibetan translitteration - there
>>>>> is no requirement to write exclusively in English on this list, all
>>>>> languages of Western Sichuan are allowed).
>>>>>
>>>>> Guillaume
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Guillaume Jacques
>>>>> CNRS (CRLAO) - INALCO
>>>>> http://cnrs.academia.edu/GuillaumeJacques
>>>>> http://himalco.hypotheses.org/
>>>>> http://panchr.hypotheses.org/
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> མེས་རྒྱལ་གྱི་མེ་ཏོག།
>>>>
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>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> G.yu Lha
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> G.yu Lha
>>
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>>
>
>
> --
> མེས་རྒྱལ་གྱི་མེ་ཏོག།
>
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>

-- 
Guillaume Jacques
CNRS (CRLAO) - INALCO
http://cnrs.academia.edu/GuillaumeJacques
http://himalco.hypotheses.org/
http://panchr.hypotheses.org/

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