Name for the Western Rgyalrong languages

Thu Nov 21 12:50:19 UTC 2013

I'm not sure how it is pronounced, but it seems that the Tibetan spelling
is bsu yo grong (Sun 2000:164).

2013/11/21 Guillaume Jacques <rgyalrongskad at gmail.com>

> Dear Yunfan and Gyulha,
>
> For everybody's benefit, what is the pronunciation of Siyuewu in the local
> language, and is there a Tibetan spelling for it (I guess it would be
> something like sŋo...).
>
> Guillaume
>
>
> 2013/11/21 云帆赖 <canonnier at gmail.com>
>
>> Dear Gyu Lha, thank you very much for your message.
>>
>> I have definitely heard of Siyuewu and I would very much love to know
>> more about the dialect there.
>>
>> So let's come back to the main purpose of this forum. Gyu Lha, do you
>> think Khroskyabs an appropriate name for your language?
>>
>> Cordially,
>>
>> Yunfan
>>
>>
>>
>> 2013/11/21 yina jody <abayina at gmail.com>
>>
>>> My address is abayina at gmail.com
>>>
>>>
>>> 2013/11/21 yina jody <abayina at gmail.com>
>>>
>>>> Dear 云帆，
>>>>
>>>> I am Gyu Lha. Sorry your my delayed reply. I've been having some rough
>>>> times with my new college life, so things are a little stressful.
>>>>
>>>> Anyway, I of course heard about you from my professor Scott Delancey at
>>>> University of Oregon and I read your papers on Eri Township. I am a
>>>> freshman at the University of Oregon and I am adjusting to life in US as
>>>> well.
>>>>
>>>> I am not sure if you know, but I am from a village called Siyuewu that
>>>> is close to where you did your research. I am very excited to learn that
>>>> someone is documenting the Lavrung language.
>>>>
>>>> I am looking forward to hearing from you.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>> Gyu Lha
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 2013/11/21 云帆赖 <canonnier at gmail.com>
>>>>
>>>>> Dear Guillaume and all,
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks for supporting khroskyabs.
>>>>> khroskyabs is pronounced [tʂʰoscæ] or [tʂʰoscæv] by Wobzi speakers.
>>>>>
>>>>> Is G.yu Lha in the list? Guillaume, could you let me know her email
>>>>> address? I think it would be helpful for me to get in touch with her.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> Yunfan
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 2013/11/20 Guillaume Jacques <rgyalrongskad at gmail.com>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Dear Jesse and all,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  pronounced by my Rilong consultant) [rəsɲilonba], [lonba] of course
>>>>>>> is valley, and [rəsɲi] is an alternative loconym for the valley that runs
>>>>>>> along the Xianshui River, so the Daofu valley. I am still working on the
>>>>>>> etymology, but that’s all I have for now. However, my consultant told me
>>>>>>> that she would never say [rəsɲiske].
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This is an interesting information. I would really like to know where
>>>>>> this name comes from.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 2. Although the proper Tibetan spelling is rTau, sTau is easy to
>>>>>>> “derive” from the Tibetan spelling. Most Tibetans pronounce it as [tawu] or
>>>>>>> similarly. There are many herders in the grasslands that also pronounce it
>>>>>>> as [stawu]. Conversely, many Tibetans that I have talked to, some living
>>>>>>> inside Daofu and others not, have spelled rTau as sTau!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, since the languages of the group clearly distinguish between rt-
>>>>>> and st-, if they pronounce this placename with a st-, the actual
>>>>>> pronunciation should have precedence over the standard Tibetan spelling.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Maybe we can keep Stau for the language variety (mainly) spoken in
>>>>>> Rtau county; even if some villages outside of the county speak a similar
>>>>>> language, this is not a damaging problem. It is very difficult to come up
>>>>>> with non-ambiguous names that perfectly reflect the language situaiton. For
>>>>>> instance, the name Japhug is not the best solution for designating the
>>>>>> language I am studying. These people call themselves kɯrɯ and their
>>>>>> language kɯrɯskɤt, and the name Japhug tɕɤpʰɯ or tɕʰɤpʰɯ (both
>>>>>> pronunciatins are attested) designates the Gsarrdzong/Datshang area and
>>>>>> does not include Gdongbrgyad, whose real name is sɤŋo in Japhug. However,
>>>>>> people speaking Situ call them "Japhug" as a whole, and thus the name
>>>>>> Japhug is not that bad for designating specifically this area.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For the subgroup of Rgyalrongic comprising Stau, I is important to
>>>>>> take time to as other native speakers of these languages whether 'Tre-Hor'
>>>>>> is fitting or whether it is appropriate; Horske is not specific enough in
>>>>>> my opinion (it could equally well designate the Horskad varieties in
>>>>>> Tibet). Another possibily would be Hor-Rgyalrong or Horpa Rgyalrongic.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For Geshizha, the pronunciation appears to be rgefɕe, maybe
>>>>>> reflecting Dge.bshes instead of the spelling Dge.rtsa I have found
>>>>>> elsewhere. This language is clearly distinct from Stau, but I am not sure
>>>>>> which name is better.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Khroskyabs seems to me a good alternative to Lavrung (what is the
>>>>>> pronunciation of this name in Wobzi?). I would like to know what Gyulha
>>>>>> thinks of it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For the Rgyalrong languages, there is little controversy, but I will
>>>>>> still take some time to discuss existing names. I think it is obvious to
>>>>>> everybody that Chinese-based place names like Chabao, Caodeng or Ribu are a
>>>>>> bad idea: they poorly reflect the local pronounciation (being transmitted
>>>>>> through the filter of Sichuan Mandarin plus Standard Mandarin plus English)
>>>>>> and are unable to represent the local consonant clusters.
>>>>>> Yet, for Situ I think that the Chinese name is the best solution,
>>>>>> because this language is spoken on a huge area and does not appear to have
>>>>>> a native or Tibetan name distinguish it as a whole from the northern
>>>>>> Rgyalrong languages. So Situ is perhaps the only choice we have to
>>>>>> encompass the whole area (the Tibetan equivalent would be rgyal bzhi or
>>>>>> something, but it is not a good idea to invent a name that nobody
>>>>>> understands). Japhug (and Tshobdun, Tawi and Zbu) people call the Situ
>>>>>> speakers "roŋba" to differentiate them from themselves (while calling
>>>>>> themselves "roŋwa"...), but this (as the autonym mentioned by Gyulha) is
>>>>>> not specific enough to serve as a language name, otherwise all languages of
>>>>>> the area could be called "rongba".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For Japhug I provide a discussion above, and for Tshobdun I think
>>>>>> there is no problem.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For Zbu, there are some issues. The Tibetan name of the area
>>>>>> Rdzong'bur seems to me to be made up/recent, while the local Rgyalrong name
>>>>>> Zbu is known by everybody. It is not a perfect name, as this language is
>>>>>> spread over Rdzong'bur and Tawi areas in Mbarkhams and neighbouring areas
>>>>>> of Ndzamthang, but the alternative proposed by Jackson Sun, the name ɕoʁu
>>>>>> in Tshobdun designating speakers of Zbu and latinized as "Showu", does not
>>>>>> seem very appealing to me. Maybe Zbu-Tawi would be better to include all
>>>>>> subvarieties?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Concerning the capitalization, in former publications I used to write
>>>>>> rGyalrong and rTau etc but now I believe that this is useless and that we
>>>>>> should keep the standard capitalization: Zev is right abou that (and
>>>>>> several Tibetologists have independently pointed out that they did not like
>>>>>> this practice either).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If some of you have contacts with Stau/Hor or Lavrung/Khroskyabs
>>>>>> speaking areas, don't hesitate to contact your friends, ask their opinion,
>>>>>> and post it on the list (you can even post the original message in the
>>>>>> local language in IPA transcription or in Tibetan translitteration - there
>>>>>> is no requirement to write exclusively in English on this list, all
>>>>>> languages of Western Sichuan are allowed).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Guillaume
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Guillaume Jacques
>>>>>> CNRS (CRLAO) - INALCO
>>>>>> http://cnrs.academia.edu/GuillaumeJacques
>>>>>> http://himalco.hypotheses.org/
>>>>>> http://panchr.hypotheses.org/
>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> མེས་རྒྱལ་གྱི་མེ་ཏོག།
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------
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>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> G.yu Lha
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> G.yu Lha
>>>
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>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> མེས་རྒྱལ་གྱི་མེ་ཏོག།
>>
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>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Guillaume Jacques
> CNRS (CRLAO) - INALCO
> http://cnrs.academia.edu/GuillaumeJacques
> http://himalco.hypotheses.org/
> http://panchr.hypotheses.org/
>
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-- 
མེས་རྒྱལ་གྱི་མེ་ཏོག།

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