Name for the Western Rgyalrong languages

Fri Nov 22 18:14:45 UTC 2013

Dear everyone,

Lavrung speakers in my village and near by Lavrung villages acknowledge
that they were part of Khroskyabs region in the old times. However, this
term is not often used anymore since the division of old Khroskyabs. Another
alternative name that comes in my mind is the Khrochu (大渡河 Dadu River) that
flows through the Lavrung speaking regions. Some people refer the region as
 Khrochu.

Best,
Gyu Lha

2013/11/22 Jesse Gates <jesse_gates at sil.org>

> Hi all,
>
> I’m also in favor of replacing the name ‘Lavrung’ and Yunfan has given us
> some good reasons for the need.
>
> About the term Khroskyabs (also sometimes spelled 'Chos-skyabs’). I like
> the idea, but we need to remember that Chos-skyabs was a tusi, and part of
> this tusi territory included people that speak something closer to Situ,
> which I break off as a part of Southern Rgyalrong. From my thesis (page
> 107), "Chos-skyabs is [also] located in Máorì, Tàiyánghé, Kǎlājiǎo,
> and Sāwǎjiǎo Townships of Jīnchuān/Chu-chen County. In Tàiyánghé
> Township, only Èrdàduì (mTshotupu) has speakers of a south-regional
> rGyalrongic variety. In Máorì Township, only Mberze Village has speakers
> of a south-regional rGyalrongic variety. The mountain ridge that divides
> Jīnchuān/Chu-chen into east and west serves as a rough boundary between
> the southern rGyalrongic region and Lavrung. Situ is spoken to the west of
> the Greater Jīnchuān River and Chinese is spoken in Townships to the
> direct south from Qìngnìng to Lēiwū.”
>
> This shouldn’t pose too big of a problem for using Khroskyabs, because I
> don’t think we have a better option. However, we need to remember that
> people in Kǎlājiǎo and Sāwǎjiǎo Townships and Èrdàduì and Mberze
> Villages may also use this loconym to refer to their language, even though
> they speak a Rgyalrongic language different from those who speak ‘Lavrung'
> in Guanyinqiao, Muerzong, Ergali, parts of Puxi, parts of Taiyanghe, parts
> of Jimu, and parts of Ere Townships.
>
> Best,
> Jesse
>
>
>
>
>
> On Nov 22, 2013, at 6:58 AM, 云帆赖 <canonnier at GMAIL.COM> wrote:
>
> Oh, the penny's dropped.
> That is *fsə-jo* in Wobzi, for knife sharpening.
>
> *fsə-vi-pɑ *'blacksmith'
>
>
> 2013/11/21 yina jody <abayina at gmail.com>
>
>> Dear Guillaume,
>>
>> The pronunciation of Siyuewu is vsɘ jo ɰu.   vsɘ jo means 'stone mill'
>> and ɰu is just an article that makes a place in Lavrung. There used to be a
>> big mill stone in the village, that's why people named the village vsɘ jo ɰu.
>> Siyuwwu is the Chinese *pinyin *version*.*
>>
>> Best,
>> Gyu Lha
>>
>>
>> 2013/11/21 云帆赖 <canonnier at gmail.com>
>>
>>> I'm not sure how it is pronounced, but it seems that the Tibetan
>>> spelling is bsu yo grong (Sun 2000:164).
>>>
>>>
>>> 2013/11/21 Guillaume Jacques <rgyalrongskad at gmail.com>
>>>
>>>> Dear Yunfan and Gyulha,
>>>>
>>>> For everybody's benefit, what is the pronunciation of Siyuewu in the
>>>> local language, and is there a Tibetan spelling for it (I guess it would be
>>>> something like sŋo...).
>>>>
>>>> Guillaume
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 2013/11/21 云帆赖 <canonnier at gmail.com>
>>>>
>>>>> Dear Gyu Lha, thank you very much for your message.
>>>>>
>>>>> I have definitely heard of Siyuewu and I would very much love to know
>>>>> more about the dialect there.
>>>>>
>>>>> So let's come back to the main purpose of this forum. Gyu Lha, do you
>>>>> think Khroskyabs an appropriate name for your language?
>>>>>
>>>>> Cordially,
>>>>>
>>>>> Yunfan
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 2013/11/21 yina jody <abayina at gmail.com>
>>>>>
>>>>>> My address is abayina at gmail.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2013/11/21 yina jody <abayina at gmail.com>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dear 云帆，
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I am Gyu Lha. Sorry your my delayed reply. I've been having some
>>>>>>> rough times with my new college life, so things are a little stressful.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Anyway, I of course heard about you from my professor Scott Delancey
>>>>>>> at University of Oregon and I read your papers on Eri Township. I am a
>>>>>>> freshman at the University of Oregon and I am adjusting to life in US as
>>>>>>> well.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I am not sure if you know, but I am from a village called Siyuewu
>>>>>>> that is close to where you did your research. I am very excited to learn
>>>>>>> that someone is documenting the Lavrung language.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I am looking forward to hearing from you.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>> Gyu Lha
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 2013/11/21 云帆赖 <canonnier at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Dear Guillaume and all,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thanks for supporting khroskyabs.
>>>>>>>> khroskyabs is pronounced [tʂʰoscæ] or [tʂʰoscæv] by Wobzi speakers.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Is G.yu Lha in the list? Guillaume, could you let me know her email
>>>>>>>> address? I think it would be helpful for me to get in touch with her.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yunfan
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 2013/11/20 Guillaume Jacques <rgyalrongskad at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Dear Jesse and all,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> pronounced by my Rilong consultant) [rəsɲilonba], [lonba] of
>>>>>>>>>> course is valley, and [rəsɲi] is an alternative loconym for the valley that
>>>>>>>>>> runs along the Xianshui River, so the Daofu valley. I am still working on
>>>>>>>>>> the etymology, but that’s all I have for now. However, my consultant told
>>>>>>>>>> me that she would never say [rəsɲiske].
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> This is an interesting information. I would really like to know
>>>>>>>>> where this name comes from.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> 2. Although the proper Tibetan spelling is rTau, sTau is easy to
>>>>>>>>>> “derive” from the Tibetan spelling. Most Tibetans pronounce it as [tawu] or
>>>>>>>>>> similarly. There are many herders in the grasslands that also pronounce it
>>>>>>>>>> as [stawu]. Conversely, many Tibetans that I have talked to, some living
>>>>>>>>>> inside Daofu and others not, have spelled rTau as sTau!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Yes, since the languages of the group clearly distinguish between
>>>>>>>>> rt- and st-, if they pronounce this placename with a st-, the actual
>>>>>>>>> pronunciation should have precedence over the standard Tibetan spelling.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Maybe we can keep Stau for the language variety (mainly) spoken in
>>>>>>>>> Rtau county; even if some villages outside of the county speak a similar
>>>>>>>>> language, this is not a damaging problem. It is very difficult to come up
>>>>>>>>> with non-ambiguous names that perfectly reflect the language situaiton. For
>>>>>>>>> instance, the name Japhug is not the best solution for designating the
>>>>>>>>> language I am studying. These people call themselves kɯrɯ and their
>>>>>>>>> language kɯrɯskɤt, and the name Japhug tɕɤpʰɯ or tɕʰɤpʰɯ (both
>>>>>>>>> pronunciatins are attested) designates the Gsarrdzong/Datshang area and
>>>>>>>>> does not include Gdongbrgyad, whose real name is sɤŋo in Japhug. However,
>>>>>>>>> people speaking Situ call them "Japhug" as a whole, and thus the name
>>>>>>>>> Japhug is not that bad for designating specifically this area.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> For the subgroup of Rgyalrongic comprising Stau, I is important to
>>>>>>>>> take time to as other native speakers of these languages whether 'Tre-Hor'
>>>>>>>>> is fitting or whether it is appropriate; Horske is not specific enough in
>>>>>>>>> my opinion (it could equally well designate the Horskad varieties in
>>>>>>>>> Tibet). Another possibily would be Hor-Rgyalrong or Horpa Rgyalrongic.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> For Geshizha, the pronunciation appears to be rgefɕe, maybe
>>>>>>>>> reflecting Dge.bshes instead of the spelling Dge.rtsa I have found
>>>>>>>>> elsewhere. This language is clearly distinct from Stau, but I am not sure
>>>>>>>>> which name is better.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Khroskyabs seems to me a good alternative to Lavrung (what is the
>>>>>>>>> pronunciation of this name in Wobzi?). I would like to know what Gyulha
>>>>>>>>> thinks of it.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> For the Rgyalrong languages, there is little controversy, but I
>>>>>>>>> will still take some time to discuss existing names. I think it is obvious
>>>>>>>>> to everybody that Chinese-based place names like Chabao, Caodeng or Ribu
>>>>>>>>> are a bad idea: they poorly reflect the local pronounciation (being
>>>>>>>>> transmitted through the filter of Sichuan Mandarin plus Standard Mandarin
>>>>>>>>> plus English) and are unable to represent the local consonant clusters.
>>>>>>>>> Yet, for Situ I think that the Chinese name is the best solution,
>>>>>>>>> because this language is spoken on a huge area and does not appear to have
>>>>>>>>> a native or Tibetan name distinguish it as a whole from the northern
>>>>>>>>> Rgyalrong languages. So Situ is perhaps the only choice we have to
>>>>>>>>> encompass the whole area (the Tibetan equivalent would be rgyal bzhi or
>>>>>>>>> something, but it is not a good idea to invent a name that nobody
>>>>>>>>> understands). Japhug (and Tshobdun, Tawi and Zbu) people call the Situ
>>>>>>>>> speakers "roŋba" to differentiate them from themselves (while calling
>>>>>>>>> themselves "roŋwa"...), but this (as the autonym mentioned by Gyulha) is
>>>>>>>>> not specific enough to serve as a language name, otherwise all languages of
>>>>>>>>> the area could be called "rongba".
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> For Japhug I provide a discussion above, and for Tshobdun I think
>>>>>>>>> there is no problem.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> For Zbu, there are some issues. The Tibetan name of the area
>>>>>>>>> Rdzong'bur seems to me to be made up/recent, while the local Rgyalrong name
>>>>>>>>> Zbu is known by everybody. It is not a perfect name, as this language is
>>>>>>>>> spread over Rdzong'bur and Tawi areas in Mbarkhams and neighbouring areas
>>>>>>>>> of Ndzamthang, but the alternative proposed by Jackson Sun, the name ɕoʁu
>>>>>>>>> in Tshobdun designating speakers of Zbu and latinized as "Showu", does not
>>>>>>>>> seem very appealing to me. Maybe Zbu-Tawi would be better to include all
>>>>>>>>> subvarieties?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Concerning the capitalization, in former publications I used to
>>>>>>>>> write rGyalrong and rTau etc but now I believe that this is useless and
>>>>>>>>> that we should keep the standard capitalization: Zev is right abou that
>>>>>>>>> (and several Tibetologists have independently pointed out that they did not
>>>>>>>>> like this practice either).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If some of you have contacts with Stau/Hor or Lavrung/Khroskyabs
>>>>>>>>> speaking areas, don't hesitate to contact your friends, ask their opinion,
>>>>>>>>> and post it on the list (you can even post the original message in the
>>>>>>>>> local language in IPA transcription or in Tibetan translitteration - there
>>>>>>>>> is no requirement to write exclusively in English on this list, all
>>>>>>>>> languages of Western Sichuan are allowed).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Guillaume
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Guillaume Jacques
>>>>>>>>> CNRS (CRLAO) - INALCO
>>>>>>>>> http://cnrs.academia.edu/GuillaumeJacques
>>>>>>>>> http://himalco.hypotheses.org/
>>>>>>>>> http://panchr.hypotheses.org/
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> མེས་རྒྱལ་གྱི་མེ་ཏོག།
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from the RGYALRONG list, click the following link:
>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> G.yu Lha
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> G.yu Lha
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> མེས་རྒྱལ་གྱི་མེ་ཏོག།
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> To unsubscribe from the RGYALRONG list, click the following link:
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Guillaume Jacques
>>>> CNRS (CRLAO) - INALCO
>>>> http://cnrs.academia.edu/GuillaumeJacques
>>>> http://himalco.hypotheses.org/
>>>> http://panchr.hypotheses.org/
>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> མེས་རྒྱལ་གྱི་མེ་ཏོག།
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
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>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> G.yu Lha
>>
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>>
>
>
>
> --
> མེས་རྒྱལ་གྱི་མེ་ཏོག།
>
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-- 
G.yu Lha

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