Name for the Western Rgyalrong languages

Sat Nov 23 10:25:54 UTC 2013

Dear Gyulha,

As you know, Khrochu is also the Tibetan name of Heishui; it is not an
optimal solution for naming your language. I think that 'Khroskyabs', as
proposed by Yunfan and his Wobzi collaborator Rig'dus Lhamo, is the best
name for the language, and that we can abandon 'Lavrung' (of course, I am
still open to objections).

I will start using 'Khroskyabs' from now on, including in my presentation
in Zürich in December.

Guillaume

2013/11/22 yina jody <abayina at gmail.com>

> Dear everyone,
>
>
> Lavrung speakers in my village and near by Lavrung villages acknowledge
> that they were part of Khroskyabs region in the old times. However, this
> term is not often used anymore since the division of old Khroskyabs. Another
> alternative name that comes in my mind is the Khrochu (大渡河 Dadu River)
> that flows through the Lavrung speaking regions. Some people refer the
> region as  Khrochu.
>
>
>
> Best,
> Gyu Lha
>
>
> 2013/11/22 Jesse Gates <jesse_gates at sil.org>
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I’m also in favor of replacing the name ‘Lavrung’ and Yunfan has given us
>> some good reasons for the need.
>>
>> About the term Khroskyabs (also sometimes spelled 'Chos-skyabs’). I like
>> the idea, but we need to remember that Chos-skyabs was a tusi, and part of
>> this tusi territory included people that speak something closer to Situ,
>> which I break off as a part of Southern Rgyalrong. From my thesis (page
>> 107), "Chos-skyabs is [also] located in Máorì, Tàiyánghé, Kǎlājiǎo,
>> and Sāwǎjiǎo Townships of Jīnchuān/Chu-chen County. In Tàiyánghé
>> Township, only Èrdàduì (mTshotupu) has speakers of a south-regional
>> rGyalrongic variety. In Máorì Township, only Mberze Village has speakers
>> of a south-regional rGyalrongic variety. The mountain ridge that divides
>> Jīnchuān/Chu-chen into east and west serves as a rough boundary between
>> the southern rGyalrongic region and Lavrung. Situ is spoken to the west of
>> the Greater Jīnchuān River and Chinese is spoken in Townships to the
>> direct south from Qìngnìng to Lēiwū.”
>>
>> This shouldn’t pose too big of a problem for using Khroskyabs, because I
>> don’t think we have a better option. However, we need to remember that
>> people in Kǎlājiǎo and Sāwǎjiǎo Townships and Èrdàduì and Mberze
>> Villages may also use this loconym to refer to their language, even though
>> they speak a Rgyalrongic language different from those who speak ‘Lavrung'
>> in Guanyinqiao, Muerzong, Ergali, parts of Puxi, parts of Taiyanghe, parts
>> of Jimu, and parts of Ere Townships.
>>
>> Best,
>> Jesse
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Nov 22, 2013, at 6:58 AM, 云帆赖 <canonnier at GMAIL.COM> wrote:
>>
>> Oh, the penny's dropped.
>> That is *fsə-jo* in Wobzi, for knife sharpening.
>>
>> *fsə-vi-pɑ *'blacksmith'
>>
>>
>> 2013/11/21 yina jody <abayina at gmail.com>
>>
>>> Dear Guillaume,
>>>
>>> The pronunciation of Siyuewu is vsɘ jo ɰu.   vsɘ jo means 'stone mill'
>>> and ɰu is just an article that makes a place in Lavrung. There used to be a
>>> big mill stone in the village, that's why people named the village vsɘ
>>>  jo ɰu. Siyuwwu is the Chinese *pinyin *version*.*
>>>
>>> Best,
>>> Gyu Lha
>>>
>>>
>>> 2013/11/21 云帆赖 <canonnier at gmail.com>
>>>
>>>> I'm not sure how it is pronounced, but it seems that the Tibetan
>>>> spelling is bsu yo grong (Sun 2000:164).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 2013/11/21 Guillaume Jacques <rgyalrongskad at gmail.com>
>>>>
>>>>> Dear Yunfan and Gyulha,
>>>>>
>>>>> For everybody's benefit, what is the pronunciation of Siyuewu in the
>>>>> local language, and is there a Tibetan spelling for it (I guess it would be
>>>>> something like sŋo...).
>>>>>
>>>>> Guillaume
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 2013/11/21 云帆赖 <canonnier at gmail.com>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Dear Gyu Lha, thank you very much for your message.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have definitely heard of Siyuewu and I would very much love to know
>>>>>> more about the dialect there.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So let's come back to the main purpose of this forum. Gyu Lha, do you
>>>>>> think Khroskyabs an appropriate name for your language?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cordially,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yunfan
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2013/11/21 yina jody <abayina at gmail.com>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My address is abayina at gmail.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 2013/11/21 yina jody <abayina at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Dear 云帆，
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I am Gyu Lha. Sorry your my delayed reply. I've been having some
>>>>>>>> rough times with my new college life, so things are a little stressful.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Anyway, I of course heard about you from my professor Scott
>>>>>>>> Delancey at University of Oregon and I read your papers on Eri Township. I
>>>>>>>> am a freshman at the University of Oregon and I am adjusting to life in US
>>>>>>>> as well.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I am not sure if you know, but I am from a village called Siyuewu
>>>>>>>> that is close to where you did your research. I am very excited to learn
>>>>>>>> that someone is documenting the Lavrung language.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I am looking forward to hearing from you.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>>> Gyu Lha
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 2013/11/21 云帆赖 <canonnier at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Dear Guillaume and all,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Thanks for supporting khroskyabs.
>>>>>>>>> khroskyabs is pronounced [tʂʰoscæ] or [tʂʰoscæv] by Wobzi speakers.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Is G.yu Lha in the list? Guillaume, could you let me know her
>>>>>>>>> email address? I think it would be helpful for me to get in touch with her.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Yunfan
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 2013/11/20 Guillaume Jacques <rgyalrongskad at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Dear Jesse and all,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> pronounced by my Rilong consultant) [rəsɲilonba], [lonba] of
>>>>>>>>>>> course is valley, and [rəsɲi] is an alternative loconym for the valley that
>>>>>>>>>>> runs along the Xianshui River, so the Daofu valley. I am still working on
>>>>>>>>>>> the etymology, but that’s all I have for now. However, my consultant told
>>>>>>>>>>> me that she would never say [rəsɲiske].
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> This is an interesting information. I would really like to know
>>>>>>>>>> where this name comes from.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> 2. Although the proper Tibetan spelling is rTau, sTau is easy to
>>>>>>>>>>> “derive” from the Tibetan spelling. Most Tibetans pronounce it as [tawu] or
>>>>>>>>>>> similarly. There are many herders in the grasslands that also pronounce it
>>>>>>>>>>> as [stawu]. Conversely, many Tibetans that I have talked to, some living
>>>>>>>>>>> inside Daofu and others not, have spelled rTau as sTau!
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Yes, since the languages of the group clearly distinguish between
>>>>>>>>>> rt- and st-, if they pronounce this placename with a st-, the actual
>>>>>>>>>> pronunciation should have precedence over the standard Tibetan spelling.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Maybe we can keep Stau for the language variety (mainly) spoken
>>>>>>>>>> in Rtau county; even if some villages outside of the county speak a similar
>>>>>>>>>> language, this is not a damaging problem. It is very difficult to come up
>>>>>>>>>> with non-ambiguous names that perfectly reflect the language situaiton. For
>>>>>>>>>> instance, the name Japhug is not the best solution for designating the
>>>>>>>>>> language I am studying. These people call themselves kɯrɯ and their
>>>>>>>>>> language kɯrɯskɤt, and the name Japhug tɕɤpʰɯ or tɕʰɤpʰɯ (both
>>>>>>>>>> pronunciatins are attested) designates the Gsarrdzong/Datshang area and
>>>>>>>>>> does not include Gdongbrgyad, whose real name is sɤŋo in Japhug. However,
>>>>>>>>>> people speaking Situ call them "Japhug" as a whole, and thus the name
>>>>>>>>>> Japhug is not that bad for designating specifically this area.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> For the subgroup of Rgyalrongic comprising Stau, I is important
>>>>>>>>>> to take time to as other native speakers of these languages whether
>>>>>>>>>> 'Tre-Hor' is fitting or whether it is appropriate; Horske is not specific
>>>>>>>>>> enough in my opinion (it could equally well designate the Horskad varieties
>>>>>>>>>> in Tibet). Another possibily would be Hor-Rgyalrong or Horpa Rgyalrongic.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> For Geshizha, the pronunciation appears to be rgefɕe, maybe
>>>>>>>>>> reflecting Dge.bshes instead of the spelling Dge.rtsa I have found
>>>>>>>>>> elsewhere. This language is clearly distinct from Stau, but I am not sure
>>>>>>>>>> which name is better.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Khroskyabs seems to me a good alternative to Lavrung (what is the
>>>>>>>>>> pronunciation of this name in Wobzi?). I would like to know what Gyulha
>>>>>>>>>> thinks of it.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> For the Rgyalrong languages, there is little controversy, but I
>>>>>>>>>> will still take some time to discuss existing names. I think it is obvious
>>>>>>>>>> to everybody that Chinese-based place names like Chabao, Caodeng or Ribu
>>>>>>>>>> are a bad idea: they poorly reflect the local pronounciation (being
>>>>>>>>>> transmitted through the filter of Sichuan Mandarin plus Standard Mandarin
>>>>>>>>>> plus English) and are unable to represent the local consonant clusters.
>>>>>>>>>> Yet, for Situ I think that the Chinese name is the best solution,
>>>>>>>>>> because this language is spoken on a huge area and does not appear to have
>>>>>>>>>> a native or Tibetan name distinguish it as a whole from the northern
>>>>>>>>>> Rgyalrong languages. So Situ is perhaps the only choice we have to
>>>>>>>>>> encompass the whole area (the Tibetan equivalent would be rgyal bzhi or
>>>>>>>>>> something, but it is not a good idea to invent a name that nobody
>>>>>>>>>> understands). Japhug (and Tshobdun, Tawi and Zbu) people call the Situ
>>>>>>>>>> speakers "roŋba" to differentiate them from themselves (while calling
>>>>>>>>>> themselves "roŋwa"...), but this (as the autonym mentioned by Gyulha) is
>>>>>>>>>> not specific enough to serve as a language name, otherwise all languages of
>>>>>>>>>> the area could be called "rongba".
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> For Japhug I provide a discussion above, and for Tshobdun I think
>>>>>>>>>> there is no problem.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> For Zbu, there are some issues. The Tibetan name of the area
>>>>>>>>>> Rdzong'bur seems to me to be made up/recent, while the local Rgyalrong name
>>>>>>>>>> Zbu is known by everybody. It is not a perfect name, as this language is
>>>>>>>>>> spread over Rdzong'bur and Tawi areas in Mbarkhams and neighbouring areas
>>>>>>>>>> of Ndzamthang, but the alternative proposed by Jackson Sun, the name ɕoʁu
>>>>>>>>>> in Tshobdun designating speakers of Zbu and latinized as "Showu", does not
>>>>>>>>>> seem very appealing to me. Maybe Zbu-Tawi would be better to include all
>>>>>>>>>> subvarieties?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Concerning the capitalization, in former publications I used to
>>>>>>>>>> write rGyalrong and rTau etc but now I believe that this is useless and
>>>>>>>>>> that we should keep the standard capitalization: Zev is right abou that
>>>>>>>>>> (and several Tibetologists have independently pointed out that they did not
>>>>>>>>>> like this practice either).
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If some of you have contacts with Stau/Hor or Lavrung/Khroskyabs
>>>>>>>>>> speaking areas, don't hesitate to contact your friends, ask their opinion,
>>>>>>>>>> and post it on the list (you can even post the original message in the
>>>>>>>>>> local language in IPA transcription or in Tibetan translitteration - there
>>>>>>>>>> is no requirement to write exclusively in English on this list, all
>>>>>>>>>> languages of Western Sichuan are allowed).
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Guillaume
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> Guillaume Jacques
>>>>>>>>>> CNRS (CRLAO) - INALCO
>>>>>>>>>> http://cnrs.academia.edu/GuillaumeJacques
>>>>>>>>>> http://himalco.hypotheses.org/
>>>>>>>>>> http://panchr.hypotheses.org/
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> མེས་རྒྱལ་གྱི་མེ་ཏོག།
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> G.yu Lha
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> G.yu Lha
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> མེས་རྒྱལ་གྱི་མེ་ཏོག།
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>> To unsubscribe from the RGYALRONG list, click the following link:
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Guillaume Jacques
>>>>> CNRS (CRLAO) - INALCO
>>>>> http://cnrs.academia.edu/GuillaumeJacques
>>>>> http://himalco.hypotheses.org/
>>>>> http://panchr.hypotheses.org/
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> མེས་རྒྱལ་གྱི་མེ་ཏོག།
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
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>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> G.yu Lha
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
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>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> མེས་རྒྱལ་གྱི་མེ་ཏོག།
>>
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>
>
>
> --
> G.yu Lha
>
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>

-- 
Guillaume Jacques
CNRS (CRLAO) - INALCO
http://cnrs.academia.edu/GuillaumeJacques
http://himalco.hypotheses.org/
http://panchr.hypotheses.org/

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