Name for the Western Rgyalrong languages

Mon Nov 25 06:00:37 UTC 2013

Dear Guillaume,

I didn't think of that. You are right, I wasn't aware of this. I think
Khroskyabs
is the best one we have. People in my village would be happy to hear Khroskyabs
than Lavrung. I have a stupid question to ask: how to we decide the names
of the languages? I mean, is there a way to change how people should refer
the language or we just can call whichever we want?

Best,
Gyu Lha

2013/11/23 Guillaume Jacques <rgyalrongskad at gmail.com>

> Dear Gyulha,
>
> As you know, Khrochu is also the Tibetan name of Heishui; it is not an
> optimal solution for naming your language. I think that 'Khroskyabs', as
> proposed by Yunfan and his Wobzi collaborator Rig'dus Lhamo, is the best
> name for the language, and that we can abandon 'Lavrung' (of course, I am
> still open to objections).
>
> I will start using 'Khroskyabs' from now on, including in my presentation
> in Zürich in December.
>
> Guillaume
>
>
> 2013/11/22 yina jody <abayina at gmail.com>
>
>> Dear everyone,
>>
>>
>> Lavrung speakers in my village and near by Lavrung villages acknowledge
>> that they were part of Khroskyabs region in the old times. However, this
>> term is not often used anymore since the division of old Khroskyabs. Another
>> alternative name that comes in my mind is the Khrochu (大渡河 Dadu River)
>> that flows through the Lavrung speaking regions. Some people refer the
>> region as  Khrochu.
>>
>>
>>
>> Best,
>> Gyu Lha
>>
>>
>> 2013/11/22 Jesse Gates <jesse_gates at sil.org>
>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> I’m also in favor of replacing the name ‘Lavrung’ and Yunfan has given
>>> us some good reasons for the need.
>>>
>>> About the term Khroskyabs (also sometimes spelled 'Chos-skyabs’). I like
>>> the idea, but we need to remember that Chos-skyabs was a tusi, and part of
>>> this tusi territory included people that speak something closer to Situ,
>>> which I break off as a part of Southern Rgyalrong. From my thesis (page
>>> 107), "Chos-skyabs is [also] located in Máorì, Tàiyánghé, Kǎlājiǎo,
>>> and Sāwǎjiǎo Townships of Jīnchuān/Chu-chen County. In Tàiyánghé
>>> Township, only Èrdàduì (mTshotupu) has speakers of a south-regional
>>> rGyalrongic variety. In Máorì Township, only Mberze Village has speakers
>>> of a south-regional rGyalrongic variety. The mountain ridge that divides
>>> Jīnchuān/Chu-chen into east and west serves as a rough boundary between
>>> the southern rGyalrongic region and Lavrung. Situ is spoken to the west of
>>> the Greater Jīnchuān River and Chinese is spoken in Townships to the
>>> direct south from Qìngnìng to Lēiwū.”
>>>
>>> This shouldn’t pose too big of a problem for using Khroskyabs, because I
>>> don’t think we have a better option. However, we need to remember that
>>> people in Kǎlājiǎo and Sāwǎjiǎo Townships and Èrdàduì and Mberze
>>> Villages may also use this loconym to refer to their language, even though
>>> they speak a Rgyalrongic language different from those who speak ‘Lavrung'
>>> in Guanyinqiao, Muerzong, Ergali, parts of Puxi, parts of Taiyanghe, parts
>>> of Jimu, and parts of Ere Townships.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>> Jesse
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Nov 22, 2013, at 6:58 AM, 云帆赖 <canonnier at GMAIL.COM> wrote:
>>>
>>> Oh, the penny's dropped.
>>> That is *fsə-jo* in Wobzi, for knife sharpening.
>>>
>>> *fsə-vi-pɑ *'blacksmith'
>>>
>>>
>>> 2013/11/21 yina jody <abayina at gmail.com>
>>>
>>>> Dear Guillaume,
>>>>
>>>> The pronunciation of Siyuewu is vsɘ jo ɰu.   vsɘ jo means 'stone mill'
>>>> and ɰu is just an article that makes a place in Lavrung. There used to be a
>>>> big mill stone in the village, that's why people named the village vsɘ
>>>>  jo ɰu. Siyuwwu is the Chinese *pinyin *version*.*
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>> Gyu Lha
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 2013/11/21 云帆赖 <canonnier at gmail.com>
>>>>
>>>>> I'm not sure how it is pronounced, but it seems that the Tibetan
>>>>> spelling is bsu yo grong (Sun 2000:164).
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 2013/11/21 Guillaume Jacques <rgyalrongskad at gmail.com>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Dear Yunfan and Gyulha,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For everybody's benefit, what is the pronunciation of Siyuewu in the
>>>>>> local language, and is there a Tibetan spelling for it (I guess it would be
>>>>>> something like sŋo...).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Guillaume
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2013/11/21 云帆赖 <canonnier at gmail.com>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dear Gyu Lha, thank you very much for your message.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have definitely heard of Siyuewu and I would very much love to
>>>>>>> know more about the dialect there.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So let's come back to the main purpose of this forum. Gyu Lha, do
>>>>>>> you think Khroskyabs an appropriate name for your language?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Cordially,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yunfan
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 2013/11/21 yina jody <abayina at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> My address is abayina at gmail.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 2013/11/21 yina jody <abayina at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Dear 云帆，
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I am Gyu Lha. Sorry your my delayed reply. I've been having some
>>>>>>>>> rough times with my new college life, so things are a little stressful.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Anyway, I of course heard about you from my professor Scott
>>>>>>>>> Delancey at University of Oregon and I read your papers on Eri Township. I
>>>>>>>>> am a freshman at the University of Oregon and I am adjusting to life in US
>>>>>>>>> as well.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I am not sure if you know, but I am from a village called Siyuewu
>>>>>>>>> that is close to where you did your research. I am very excited to learn
>>>>>>>>> that someone is documenting the Lavrung language.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I am looking forward to hearing from you.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>>>> Gyu Lha
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 2013/11/21 云帆赖 <canonnier at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Dear Guillaume and all,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Thanks for supporting khroskyabs.
>>>>>>>>>> khroskyabs is pronounced [tʂʰoscæ] or [tʂʰoscæv] by Wobzi
>>>>>>>>>> speakers.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Is G.yu Lha in the list? Guillaume, could you let me know her
>>>>>>>>>> email address? I think it would be helpful for me to get in touch with her.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Yunfan
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> 2013/11/20 Guillaume Jacques <rgyalrongskad at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Dear Jesse and all,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> pronounced by my Rilong consultant) [rəsɲilonba], [lonba] of
>>>>>>>>>>>> course is valley, and [rəsɲi] is an alternative loconym for the valley that
>>>>>>>>>>>> runs along the Xianshui River, so the Daofu valley. I am still working on
>>>>>>>>>>>> the etymology, but that’s all I have for now. However, my consultant told
>>>>>>>>>>>> me that she would never say [rəsɲiske].
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> This is an interesting information. I would really like to know
>>>>>>>>>>> where this name comes from.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> 2. Although the proper Tibetan spelling is rTau, sTau is easy
>>>>>>>>>>>> to “derive” from the Tibetan spelling. Most Tibetans pronounce it as [tawu]
>>>>>>>>>>>> or similarly. There are many herders in the grasslands that also pronounce
>>>>>>>>>>>> it as [stawu]. Conversely, many Tibetans that I have talked to, some living
>>>>>>>>>>>> inside Daofu and others not, have spelled rTau as sTau!
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, since the languages of the group clearly distinguish
>>>>>>>>>>> between rt- and st-, if they pronounce this placename with a st-, the
>>>>>>>>>>> actual pronunciation should have precedence over the standard Tibetan
>>>>>>>>>>> spelling.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe we can keep Stau for the language variety (mainly) spoken
>>>>>>>>>>> in Rtau county; even if some villages outside of the county speak a similar
>>>>>>>>>>> language, this is not a damaging problem. It is very difficult to come up
>>>>>>>>>>> with non-ambiguous names that perfectly reflect the language situaiton. For
>>>>>>>>>>> instance, the name Japhug is not the best solution for designating the
>>>>>>>>>>> language I am studying. These people call themselves kɯrɯ and their
>>>>>>>>>>> language kɯrɯskɤt, and the name Japhug tɕɤpʰɯ or tɕʰɤpʰɯ (both
>>>>>>>>>>> pronunciatins are attested) designates the Gsarrdzong/Datshang area and
>>>>>>>>>>> does not include Gdongbrgyad, whose real name is sɤŋo in Japhug. However,
>>>>>>>>>>> people speaking Situ call them "Japhug" as a whole, and thus the name
>>>>>>>>>>> Japhug is not that bad for designating specifically this area.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> For the subgroup of Rgyalrongic comprising Stau, I is important
>>>>>>>>>>> to take time to as other native speakers of these languages whether
>>>>>>>>>>> 'Tre-Hor' is fitting or whether it is appropriate; Horske is not specific
>>>>>>>>>>> enough in my opinion (it could equally well designate the Horskad varieties
>>>>>>>>>>> in Tibet). Another possibily would be Hor-Rgyalrong or Horpa Rgyalrongic.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> For Geshizha, the pronunciation appears to be rgefɕe, maybe
>>>>>>>>>>> reflecting Dge.bshes instead of the spelling Dge.rtsa I have found
>>>>>>>>>>> elsewhere. This language is clearly distinct from Stau, but I am not sure
>>>>>>>>>>> which name is better.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Khroskyabs seems to me a good alternative to Lavrung (what is
>>>>>>>>>>> the pronunciation of this name in Wobzi?). I would like to know what Gyulha
>>>>>>>>>>> thinks of it.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> For the Rgyalrong languages, there is little controversy, but I
>>>>>>>>>>> will still take some time to discuss existing names. I think it is obvious
>>>>>>>>>>> to everybody that Chinese-based place names like Chabao, Caodeng or Ribu
>>>>>>>>>>> are a bad idea: they poorly reflect the local pronounciation (being
>>>>>>>>>>> transmitted through the filter of Sichuan Mandarin plus Standard Mandarin
>>>>>>>>>>> plus English) and are unable to represent the local consonant clusters.
>>>>>>>>>>> Yet, for Situ I think that the Chinese name is the best
>>>>>>>>>>> solution, because this language is spoken on a huge area and does not
>>>>>>>>>>> appear to have a native or Tibetan name distinguish it as a whole from the
>>>>>>>>>>> northern Rgyalrong languages. So Situ is perhaps the only choice we have to
>>>>>>>>>>> encompass the whole area (the Tibetan equivalent would be rgyal bzhi or
>>>>>>>>>>> something, but it is not a good idea to invent a name that nobody
>>>>>>>>>>> understands). Japhug (and Tshobdun, Tawi and Zbu) people call the Situ
>>>>>>>>>>> speakers "roŋba" to differentiate them from themselves (while calling
>>>>>>>>>>> themselves "roŋwa"...), but this (as the autonym mentioned by Gyulha) is
>>>>>>>>>>> not specific enough to serve as a language name, otherwise all languages of
>>>>>>>>>>> the area could be called "rongba".
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> For Japhug I provide a discussion above, and for Tshobdun I
>>>>>>>>>>> think there is no problem.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> For Zbu, there are some issues. The Tibetan name of the area
>>>>>>>>>>> Rdzong'bur seems to me to be made up/recent, while the local Rgyalrong name
>>>>>>>>>>> Zbu is known by everybody. It is not a perfect name, as this language is
>>>>>>>>>>> spread over Rdzong'bur and Tawi areas in Mbarkhams and neighbouring areas
>>>>>>>>>>> of Ndzamthang, but the alternative proposed by Jackson Sun, the name ɕoʁu
>>>>>>>>>>> in Tshobdun designating speakers of Zbu and latinized as "Showu", does not
>>>>>>>>>>> seem very appealing to me. Maybe Zbu-Tawi would be better to include all
>>>>>>>>>>> subvarieties?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Concerning the capitalization, in former publications I used to
>>>>>>>>>>> write rGyalrong and rTau etc but now I believe that this is useless and
>>>>>>>>>>> that we should keep the standard capitalization: Zev is right abou that
>>>>>>>>>>> (and several Tibetologists have independently pointed out that they did not
>>>>>>>>>>> like this practice either).
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> If some of you have contacts with Stau/Hor or Lavrung/Khroskyabs
>>>>>>>>>>> speaking areas, don't hesitate to contact your friends, ask their opinion,
>>>>>>>>>>> and post it on the list (you can even post the original message in the
>>>>>>>>>>> local language in IPA transcription or in Tibetan translitteration - there
>>>>>>>>>>> is no requirement to write exclusively in English on this list, all
>>>>>>>>>>> languages of Western Sichuan are allowed).
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Guillaume
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>> Guillaume Jacques
>>>>>>>>>>> CNRS (CRLAO) - INALCO
>>>>>>>>>>> http://cnrs.academia.edu/GuillaumeJacques
>>>>>>>>>>> http://himalco.hypotheses.org/
>>>>>>>>>>> http://panchr.hypotheses.org/
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> མེས་རྒྱལ་གྱི་མེ་ཏོག།
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> G.yu Lha
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> G.yu Lha
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> མེས་རྒྱལ་གྱི་མེ་ཏོག།
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from the RGYALRONG list, click the following link:
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Guillaume Jacques
>>>>>> CNRS (CRLAO) - INALCO
>>>>>> http://cnrs.academia.edu/GuillaumeJacques
>>>>>> http://himalco.hypotheses.org/
>>>>>> http://panchr.hypotheses.org/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ------------------------------
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> མེས་རྒྱལ་གྱི་མེ་ཏོག།
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> G.yu Lha
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
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>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> མེས་རྒྱལ་གྱི་མེ་ཏོག།
>>>
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>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> G.yu Lha
>>
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>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Guillaume Jacques
> CNRS (CRLAO) - INALCO
> http://cnrs.academia.edu/GuillaumeJacques
> http://himalco.hypotheses.org/
> http://panchr.hypotheses.org/
>
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>

-- 
G.yu Lha

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