Name for the Western Rgyalrong languages

Mon Nov 25 08:49:45 UTC 2013

Dear Gyulha,

Concerning the language names, if we want to change Lavrung for something
else, the first step is to use this name, especially in official
publications, and then have it accepted by Ethnologue (Jesse on this list
can perhaps contribute here to explain the procedure to us).

I still have a question. Jesse mentioned the alternative spelling
Chos-skyabs, which makes more sense in Tibetan than Khros-skyabs. What is
the local pronunciation of Khros-skyabs? Do we have kʰr- or tʂʰ-?
I would suggest, for the Western name of this language, to write Khroskyabs
as one word (without hypen) and without repeating the s at syllable
juncture.

Guillaume

2013/11/25 yina jody <abayina at gmail.com>

> Dear Guillaume,
>
> I didn't think of that. You are right, I wasn't aware of this. I think Khroskyabs
> is the best one we have. People in my village would be happy to hear Khroskyabs
> than Lavrung. I have a stupid question to ask: how to we decide the names
> of the languages? I mean, is there a way to change how people should refer
> the language or we just can call whichever we want?
>
>
> Best,
> Gyu Lha
>
>
> 2013/11/23 Guillaume Jacques <rgyalrongskad at gmail.com>
>
>> Dear Gyulha,
>>
>> As you know, Khrochu is also the Tibetan name of Heishui; it is not an
>> optimal solution for naming your language. I think that 'Khroskyabs', as
>> proposed by Yunfan and his Wobzi collaborator Rig'dus Lhamo, is the best
>> name for the language, and that we can abandon 'Lavrung' (of course, I am
>> still open to objections).
>>
>> I will start using 'Khroskyabs' from now on, including in my presentation
>> in Zürich in December.
>>
>> Guillaume
>>
>>
>> 2013/11/22 yina jody <abayina at gmail.com>
>>
>>>  Dear everyone,
>>>
>>>
>>> Lavrung speakers in my village and near by Lavrung villages acknowledge
>>> that they were part of Khroskyabs region in the old times. However,
>>> this term is not often used anymore since the division of old
>>> Khroskyabs. Another alternative name that comes in my mind is the Khrochu
>>> (大渡河 Dadu River) that flows through the Lavrung speaking regions. Some
>>> people refer the region as  Khrochu.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Best,
>>> Gyu Lha
>>>
>>>
>>> 2013/11/22 Jesse Gates <jesse_gates at sil.org>
>>>
>>>> Hi all,
>>>>
>>>> I’m also in favor of replacing the name ‘Lavrung’ and Yunfan has given
>>>> us some good reasons for the need.
>>>>
>>>> About the term Khroskyabs (also sometimes spelled 'Chos-skyabs’). I
>>>> like the idea, but we need to remember that Chos-skyabs was a tusi, and
>>>> part of this tusi territory included people that speak something closer to
>>>> Situ, which I break off as a part of Southern Rgyalrong. From my thesis
>>>> (page 107), "Chos-skyabs is [also] located in Máorì, Tàiyánghé,
>>>> Kǎlājiǎo, and Sāwǎjiǎo Townships of Jīnchuān/Chu-chen County. In
>>>> Tàiyánghé Township, only Èrdàduì (mTshotupu) has speakers of a
>>>> south-regional rGyalrongic variety. In Máorì Township,
>>>> only Mberze Village has speakers of a south-regional rGyalrongic variety.
>>>> The mountain ridge that divides Jīnchuān/Chu-chen into east and west
>>>> serves as a rough boundary between the southern rGyalrongic region and
>>>> Lavrung. Situ is spoken to the west of the Greater Jīnchuān River and
>>>> Chinese is spoken in Townships to the direct south from Qìngnìng to
>>>> Lēiwū.”
>>>>
>>>> This shouldn’t pose too big of a problem for using Khroskyabs, because
>>>> I don’t think we have a better option. However, we need to remember that
>>>> people in Kǎlājiǎo and Sāwǎjiǎo Townships and Èrdàduì and Mberze
>>>> Villages may also use this loconym to refer to their language, even though
>>>> they speak a Rgyalrongic language different from those who speak ‘Lavrung'
>>>> in Guanyinqiao, Muerzong, Ergali, parts of Puxi, parts of Taiyanghe, parts
>>>> of Jimu, and parts of Ere Townships.
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>> Jesse
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Nov 22, 2013, at 6:58 AM, 云帆赖 <canonnier at GMAIL.COM> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Oh, the penny's dropped.
>>>> That is *fsə-jo* in Wobzi, for knife sharpening.
>>>>
>>>> *fsə-vi-pɑ *'blacksmith'
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 2013/11/21 yina jody <abayina at gmail.com>
>>>>
>>>>> Dear Guillaume,
>>>>>
>>>>> The pronunciation of Siyuewu is vsɘ jo ɰu.   vsɘ jo means 'stone mill'
>>>>> and ɰu is just an article that makes a place in Lavrung. There used to be a
>>>>> big mill stone in the village, that's why people named the village vsɘ
>>>>>  jo ɰu. Siyuwwu is the Chinese *pinyin *version*.*
>>>>>
>>>>> Best,
>>>>> Gyu Lha
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 2013/11/21 云帆赖 <canonnier at gmail.com>
>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm not sure how it is pronounced, but it seems that the Tibetan
>>>>>> spelling is bsu yo grong (Sun 2000:164).
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2013/11/21 Guillaume Jacques <rgyalrongskad at gmail.com>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dear Yunfan and Gyulha,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> For everybody's benefit, what is the pronunciation of Siyuewu in the
>>>>>>> local language, and is there a Tibetan spelling for it (I guess it would be
>>>>>>> something like sŋo...).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Guillaume
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 2013/11/21 云帆赖 <canonnier at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Dear Gyu Lha, thank you very much for your message.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I have definitely heard of Siyuewu and I would very much love to
>>>>>>>> know more about the dialect there.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So let's come back to the main purpose of this forum. Gyu Lha, do
>>>>>>>> you think Khroskyabs an appropriate name for your language?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Cordially,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yunfan
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 2013/11/21 yina jody <abayina at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> My address is abayina at gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 2013/11/21 yina jody <abayina at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Dear 云帆，
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I am Gyu Lha. Sorry your my delayed reply. I've been having some
>>>>>>>>>> rough times with my new college life, so things are a little stressful.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Anyway, I of course heard about you from my professor Scott
>>>>>>>>>> Delancey at University of Oregon and I read your papers on Eri Township. I
>>>>>>>>>> am a freshman at the University of Oregon and I am adjusting to life in US
>>>>>>>>>> as well.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I am not sure if you know, but I am from a village called Siyuewu
>>>>>>>>>> that is close to where you did your research. I am very excited to learn
>>>>>>>>>> that someone is documenting the Lavrung language.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I am looking forward to hearing from you.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>>>>> Gyu Lha
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> 2013/11/21 云帆赖 <canonnier at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Dear Guillaume and all,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks for supporting khroskyabs.
>>>>>>>>>>> khroskyabs is pronounced [tʂʰoscæ] or [tʂʰoscæv] by Wobzi
>>>>>>>>>>> speakers.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Is G.yu Lha in the list? Guillaume, could you let me know her
>>>>>>>>>>> email address? I think it would be helpful for me to get in touch with her.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Yunfan
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> 2013/11/20 Guillaume Jacques <rgyalrongskad at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Dear Jesse and all,
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> pronounced by my Rilong consultant) [rəsɲilonba], [lonba] of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> course is valley, and [rəsɲi] is an alternative loconym for the valley that
>>>>>>>>>>>>> runs along the Xianshui River, so the Daofu valley. I am still working on
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the etymology, but that’s all I have for now. However, my consultant told
>>>>>>>>>>>>> me that she would never say [rəsɲiske].
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> This is an interesting information. I would really like to know
>>>>>>>>>>>> where this name comes from.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2. Although the proper Tibetan spelling is rTau, sTau is easy
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to “derive” from the Tibetan spelling. Most Tibetans pronounce it as [tawu]
>>>>>>>>>>>>> or similarly. There are many herders in the grasslands that also pronounce
>>>>>>>>>>>>> it as [stawu]. Conversely, many Tibetans that I have talked to, some living
>>>>>>>>>>>>> inside Daofu and others not, have spelled rTau as sTau!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, since the languages of the group clearly distinguish
>>>>>>>>>>>> between rt- and st-, if they pronounce this placename with a st-, the
>>>>>>>>>>>> actual pronunciation should have precedence over the standard Tibetan
>>>>>>>>>>>> spelling.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe we can keep Stau for the language variety (mainly) spoken
>>>>>>>>>>>> in Rtau county; even if some villages outside of the county speak a similar
>>>>>>>>>>>> language, this is not a damaging problem. It is very difficult to come up
>>>>>>>>>>>> with non-ambiguous names that perfectly reflect the language situaiton. For
>>>>>>>>>>>> instance, the name Japhug is not the best solution for designating the
>>>>>>>>>>>> language I am studying. These people call themselves kɯrɯ and their
>>>>>>>>>>>> language kɯrɯskɤt, and the name Japhug tɕɤpʰɯ or tɕʰɤpʰɯ (both
>>>>>>>>>>>> pronunciatins are attested) designates the Gsarrdzong/Datshang area and
>>>>>>>>>>>> does not include Gdongbrgyad, whose real name is sɤŋo in Japhug. However,
>>>>>>>>>>>> people speaking Situ call them "Japhug" as a whole, and thus the name
>>>>>>>>>>>> Japhug is not that bad for designating specifically this area.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> For the subgroup of Rgyalrongic comprising Stau, I is important
>>>>>>>>>>>> to take time to as other native speakers of these languages whether
>>>>>>>>>>>> 'Tre-Hor' is fitting or whether it is appropriate; Horske is not specific
>>>>>>>>>>>> enough in my opinion (it could equally well designate the Horskad varieties
>>>>>>>>>>>> in Tibet). Another possibily would be Hor-Rgyalrong or Horpa Rgyalrongic.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> For Geshizha, the pronunciation appears to be rgefɕe, maybe
>>>>>>>>>>>> reflecting Dge.bshes instead of the spelling Dge.rtsa I have found
>>>>>>>>>>>> elsewhere. This language is clearly distinct from Stau, but I am not sure
>>>>>>>>>>>> which name is better.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Khroskyabs seems to me a good alternative to Lavrung (what is
>>>>>>>>>>>> the pronunciation of this name in Wobzi?). I would like to know what Gyulha
>>>>>>>>>>>> thinks of it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> For the Rgyalrong languages, there is little controversy, but I
>>>>>>>>>>>> will still take some time to discuss existing names. I think it is obvious
>>>>>>>>>>>> to everybody that Chinese-based place names like Chabao, Caodeng or Ribu
>>>>>>>>>>>> are a bad idea: they poorly reflect the local pronounciation (being
>>>>>>>>>>>> transmitted through the filter of Sichuan Mandarin plus Standard Mandarin
>>>>>>>>>>>> plus English) and are unable to represent the local consonant clusters.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Yet, for Situ I think that the Chinese name is the best
>>>>>>>>>>>> solution, because this language is spoken on a huge area and does not
>>>>>>>>>>>> appear to have a native or Tibetan name distinguish it as a whole from the
>>>>>>>>>>>> northern Rgyalrong languages. So Situ is perhaps the only choice we have to
>>>>>>>>>>>> encompass the whole area (the Tibetan equivalent would be rgyal bzhi or
>>>>>>>>>>>> something, but it is not a good idea to invent a name that nobody
>>>>>>>>>>>> understands). Japhug (and Tshobdun, Tawi and Zbu) people call the Situ
>>>>>>>>>>>> speakers "roŋba" to differentiate them from themselves (while calling
>>>>>>>>>>>> themselves "roŋwa"...), but this (as the autonym mentioned by Gyulha) is
>>>>>>>>>>>> not specific enough to serve as a language name, otherwise all languages of
>>>>>>>>>>>> the area could be called "rongba".
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> For Japhug I provide a discussion above, and for Tshobdun I
>>>>>>>>>>>> think there is no problem.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> For Zbu, there are some issues. The Tibetan name of the area
>>>>>>>>>>>> Rdzong'bur seems to me to be made up/recent, while the local Rgyalrong name
>>>>>>>>>>>> Zbu is known by everybody. It is not a perfect name, as this language is
>>>>>>>>>>>> spread over Rdzong'bur and Tawi areas in Mbarkhams and neighbouring areas
>>>>>>>>>>>> of Ndzamthang, but the alternative proposed by Jackson Sun, the name ɕoʁu
>>>>>>>>>>>> in Tshobdun designating speakers of Zbu and latinized as "Showu", does not
>>>>>>>>>>>> seem very appealing to me. Maybe Zbu-Tawi would be better to include all
>>>>>>>>>>>> subvarieties?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Concerning the capitalization, in former publications I used to
>>>>>>>>>>>> write rGyalrong and rTau etc but now I believe that this is useless and
>>>>>>>>>>>> that we should keep the standard capitalization: Zev is right abou that
>>>>>>>>>>>> (and several Tibetologists have independently pointed out that they did not
>>>>>>>>>>>> like this practice either).
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> If some of you have contacts with Stau/Hor or
>>>>>>>>>>>> Lavrung/Khroskyabs speaking areas, don't hesitate to contact your friends,
>>>>>>>>>>>> ask their opinion, and post it on the list (you can even post the original
>>>>>>>>>>>> message in the local language in IPA transcription or in Tibetan
>>>>>>>>>>>> translitteration - there is no requirement to write exclusively in English
>>>>>>>>>>>> on this list, all languages of Western Sichuan are allowed).
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Guillaume
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>> Guillaume Jacques
>>>>>>>>>>>> CNRS (CRLAO) - INALCO
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://cnrs.academia.edu/GuillaumeJacques
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://himalco.hypotheses.org/
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://panchr.hypotheses.org/
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------
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>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>> མེས་རྒྱལ་གྱི་མེ་ཏོག།
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> G.yu Lha
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> G.yu Lha
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from the RGYALRONG list, click the following link:
>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> མེས་རྒྱལ་གྱི་མེ་ཏོག།
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from the RGYALRONG list, click the following link:
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Guillaume Jacques
>>>>>>> CNRS (CRLAO) - INALCO
>>>>>>> http://cnrs.academia.edu/GuillaumeJacques
>>>>>>> http://himalco.hypotheses.org/
>>>>>>> http://panchr.hypotheses.org/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> མེས་རྒྱལ་གྱི་མེ་ཏོག།
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>> To unsubscribe from the RGYALRONG list, click the following link:
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>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> G.yu Lha
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> To unsubscribe from the RGYALRONG list, click the following link:
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>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> མེས་རྒྱལ་གྱི་མེ་ཏོག།
>>>>
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>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> G.yu Lha
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
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>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Guillaume Jacques
>> CNRS (CRLAO) - INALCO
>> http://cnrs.academia.edu/GuillaumeJacques
>> http://himalco.hypotheses.org/
>> http://panchr.hypotheses.org/
>>
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>>
>
>
> --
> G.yu Lha
>
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>

-- 
Guillaume Jacques
CNRS (CRLAO) - INALCO
http://cnrs.academia.edu/GuillaumeJacques
http://himalco.hypotheses.org/
http://panchr.hypotheses.org/

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