Volkswagen acquires the Hochank language
John Kyle
jkyle at ku.edu
Mon Oct 27 01:55:03 UTC 2003
I hope my last post didn't imply that linguists shouldn't learn other languages in depth. I merely wanted to point out that it is not a necessity for a linguist to learn to speak every language that he/she works with. If the opportunity is there to learn the language, then I think most linguists will attempt to do so. I've sat down with many grammars of languages that are no longer spoken or that I don't have the opportunity to hear spoken and (being a linguist) gotten insight from them. As I mentioned and Bob reiterated, there are all sorts of linguists out there working in many different areas of linguistics. Do what you do best and do it well!
John Kyle
jkyle at ku.edu
**************************************
"We need an energy bill that encourages consumption."
- Pres. Bush, Trenton, N.J., Sept. 23, 2002
----- Original Message -----
From: David Kaufman
To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu
Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2003 11:27 AM
Subject: Re: Volkswagen acquires the Hochank language
Thanks for your input, John. I guess as an avid language learner myself, I would really want to be able to speak the language(s) to some degree that I work on. Maybe that means I'll just work on fewer languages, but hopefully those will be more in depth!
Dave
John Kyle <jkyle at ku.edu> wrote:
David Kaufman asked:
Does the "typical linguist" normally study a language (on paper presumably) but never attempt to speak it?
If 'typical' means the majority of linguists then I would have to say yes, most linguists don't need to learn a language in order to study it. What I've found over my many years in linguistics is that there are many types of linguists studying a wide range of topics and languages. Even in the realm of the field linguist, it is not necessary to learn the language (the hours of pouring over tapes and writing and rewriting though can give one a good working knowledge of the language...but does this mean we 'know' the language). For many linguists, our work is to 'distill' the order out of language. When my introductory linguistic students asked me if I had to learn all the languages I used for examples, I told them that as linguists we can 'cheat'. To learn and know a language as a speaker requires the memorization of thousands of lexical items and idioms and then putting them together in the accepted manner. ! ; As linguists we often don't have to do the memorization. Our joy seems to come from finding those regular patterns that the lexical items fit into.
But it all depends on what type of linguistics you are doing. It would be a real hindrance to linguistics if we had to learn all the languages we deal with.
John Kyle
jkyle at ku.edu
**************************************
"We need an energy bill that encourages consumption."
- Pres. Bush, Trenton, N.J., Sept. 23, 2002
----- Original Message -----
From: David Kaufman
To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu
Sent: Saturday, October 25, 2003 10:39 PM
Subject: Re: Volkswagen acquires the Hochank language
Kathleen,
I want to respond to your email because both you and Pat raised an interesting point:
--linguists would do well to inspire by example and at least aspire to speak the language they are studying.--
As I said before, I'm new to all this (the world of linguistics and academia), and at the risk of sounding naive, I intend to learn from this experience.
I find this odd, especially for a spoken language. (I could understand it more in the case of Latin or Ancient Greek, for example, where there are no more "native" speakers and just a basic understanding of written genders and cases is all one really needs to "know" the language.) But if a linguist is doing field work and having interaction with native speakers, how could they not "speak" the language to some degree? Especially since an understanding of accent, pitch, or tone may be crucial, one would have to hear the spoken language at some point, and one should be able to communicate in the language (albeit possibly not altogether correctly!) at some level.
I guess I would equate "studying" a language with learning to "speak" it. If I'm helping to document a language and taking part in its revitalization efforts, I would naturally want to learn to "speak" it with the native speakers I come into contact with, if for no other reason than to make sure I've got it right before writing about it or committing anything to paper. Plus, again, by learning to speak the language and communicating in it to some degree, I would be gaining better understanding and insight on the culture and people who speak it natively.
But, it's sounding like this may not be standard practice among most linguists?
Dave
Kathleen Shea <kdshea at ku.edu> wrote:
I think that we all have our built-in biases and that learning to function
within another culture can often be an uncomfortable process, even though
it's ultimately worthwhile and rewarding. Often we don't learn without
making mistakes and stepping on someone's toes, and it seems that growth
doesn't occur without some struggle and overcoming obstacles. I don't know
if Pat is Hocank or has ever tried to work within a community on language
maintenance, but it can be a humbling experience. Often there are many
seemingly more immediate problems to be overcome, hindered in their solution
by many political and economic limitations. Every community is different,
and a "one-size-fits-all" approach doesn't work. Sure, it would be great if
languages could be passed down as they traditionally have been, orally, from
parent to child, but what do you do if! ! the speakers are all
great-grandparents of not-very-good health, even if a preschool exists?
What do you do if a federally funded program that helps parents with young
children get their GED's (i.e., Even Start) won't let the parents or
children learn their ancestral language as part of the program? And so
on.... A grassroots effort is definitely needed, with people in the
community aware enough of the need to be behind it, and it takes more than
just one person--if that's what the community wants. The logistics can be
daunting. I don't think any of us academic "experts" know what works best
when it comes to passing on a language, other than the tried-and-true
traditional way, but I would think that the more approaches used the better.
I do agree with Pat, though, that linguists would do well to inspire by
example and at least aspire to speak the language they are studying. (I
believe it was Durbin Feeling at a sovereignty conference in Tu! ! lsa several
years ago who first encouraged me to do this.)
Kathy Shea
----- Original Message -----
From: "warr0120"
To: ; ;
Sent: Saturday, October 25, 2003 5:52 PM
Subject: Re: Volkswagen acquires the Hochank language
> Well, Henning, I wish YOU had been the one to inform people in the first
> place about the project and a Hocank person and scholar's perspective on
> it. Thank you for addressing some of the issues that were not addressed in
> Johannes' email. Seeing the project from a Hocank perspective is exactly
> what I find most important, and almost always missing from linguists' and
> anthros' work who claim authorship or directorship and leave no space for
> the voices of the community being studied to come through enedited, as far
> as how they view the project. (except see! ! Young Bear and Theisz 1994,
> Standing in the light a Lakota way of seeing, with an introduction written
> by the primary informant.)
>
> My immediate concern is the extreme emphasis on documentation, which to be
> done well and usefully does require expertise and much attention to
detail.
> But documentation can be a distraction, one of those activities that can
> let you feel busy and productive while the real problems continue
> unhindered, and can even exacerbate the problems of identity as reliance
on
> experts from outside the community becomes more acute.
>
> I know the powerful roles that documentation can play for self-empowerment
> and language revitalization in particular. But I wish people's first
> initiative when big sums of money came around was NOT to manufacture
> objects: dictionaries, grammars, "children's" books, videotapes, or
> interactive cdroms, that make you fe! ! el proud, but are static. It would
seem
> much more important to spend every penny possible getting all the fluent
> speakers together with children in the community so the language can be
> passed on in the most efficient and natural way possible. And probably the
> only really lasting way of language transmission for a whole culture. I
> hope the Hocank nation is successful in its current use of natural
language
> learning methods, but I will NOT rest assured. Every step toward
> strengthening natural language and culture transmission is an amazing and
> important experience. But it will never be enough. The tide against the
> language and culture is so very strong. (By the way I'm offering these
> thought in general, not just as response to you, Henning - you clearly
> emphasized much of this in your own email.)
>
> I see the training of new generations of teachers as essential, people
with
&! gt; voracious scholarly appetites (I hope you're hungry Henning, and from the
> emails you send to the Siouan languages list, I think you fit my
stereotype
> of a healthy native scholar) and acccess to great materials, who can
create
> new materials: but all so that ADULTS who need to learn the language can
> learn. Kids don't need dictionaries or picture books. They need fluent
> adult speakers who care for them and spend extended time with them, giving
> them encouragement, love, and a positive identity in the language. You
> can't get that from materials, not matter how interactive they are.
>
> I don't intend to criticize the Hocank nation's choices of whom to work
> with. I mean to arouse some discussion as to individual motivations and
> hopes. People always discuss their Grand Projects in objectified terms (at
> least in writing, I'm sure it's sometimes different wh! en you do get to
meet
&! gt; people in person) and never tell what their feelings are on the issue.
That
> may scare off the academic in many of you, but I see a healthy
relationship
> as one in which feelings are expressed openly and intellectualization is
> minimized.
>
> When motives and hopes aren't discused, I fear the continuation of the
> colonization and genocide project. No one is doing it intentionally, but
if
> the sum of many well-funded projects continues to shift focus away from
the
> real activities of language empowerment (fluent speakers spending lots of
> caring time with younger people, most especially), I fear that people with
> amazing skills and inspiration like you, Henning, will spend mountains of
> effort on endeavors with very low leverage, as far as getting the language
> to the next generation, and insuring the language as a source of
> life-giving identity ! for everyone (not just the fe! w kids who excel in
> language classes). At the very least when someone promotes a project, I
> wish they would say WHY they're doing it, what their feelings about the
> situation and propsed project are. Motivation, to me, is always more
> important than credentials, because motivation seems a greater determinant
> of good work than initials after your name. Though it seems the longer
your
> CV, the less people feel they should explain themselves. But that is
> definitely my stereotype of academics (though not totally unfounded).
>
> I envision using all resources to get people who are fluent in the
language
> and culture together with young people in a positive environment where
> healthy identities can be nurtured in the language. It is those people who
> learn the natural way that will grow up and produce the great literature
> appropriate to a healthy literate language. It's great when a few> individuals create strong indentities in their traditional cultures, but a
> few people commited to acquiring and documenting the language, even
> supported by a whole army of (non-speaking) linguists isn't going to tip
> the balances against the forces of hundreds of years of ever more refined
> and invisible genocide. (see
> http://www.preventgenocide.org/law/convention/drafts/ for the original
> United Nations definition of genocide, before the big nations who
regularly
> practice it trimmed the convention down a lot, and see Churchill 1997, A
> little matter of genocide, Chapter 7 "The United States and the Genocide
> Convention" p.363-398, for an enlightnening discussion of the
> matter...actually no, you should just read the whole book.)
>
> When it comes down to it, I see myself and all other academics, as agents
> of the dominant culture. (see C! hurchill 1997 p.93-94, "The specter of
! > Hannibal Lecter", for discussion of some unintended (at least consciously)
> consequences of academic work) Whether or not we want to admit it, and
it's
> really better if we DO admit it, we are possbily the ones who will
finalize
> the genocide (e.g., by focusing everyone's attention away from what would
> really make the difference, like dealing with the social problems that
lead
> to negative identity and hence language loss), or else we finalize the
> acculturation of indigenous people into the dominant culture (e.g., by
> convincing people of the necessity of being liguists and converting the
> language to a corpus of bastardized english-dependent texts; when IS
> somebody going to write a real native language dicitonary? an english
> dictionary doesn't explain everything in Hocank, so why do native language
> dictionaries convert everything to english?). ! So when intiative (even my
> own) ! comes from outside a native community and works its way into the
> community, I fear for what we are all not seeing.
>
> At least the Hocank nation gets to archive the material at home, and they
> already do have strong language efforts underway. Now why didn't Johannes
> mention that? Sorry if I've attacked individuals too strongly (or whole
> nations). But criticism is a good thing, I think. It's all the talk about
> etymolgies and semantics and dictionaries (which I do enjoy) while I know
> there's little kids who could be learning the language who are being
> forgotten.
>
> If only at the heart of linguistics was the commitment to personally
> acquire and transmit the language(s) you study... But why do academics
> RALLY do their work? (see Hull 1988, Science as a process, for the best
> psychosocial analysis of academia I've ever seen...then you'll see where
my
> stereotypes come fro! m, personified by real people I know/am.)
>
>
> I'll stop talking now,
> Pat Warren
>
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