paduka identity

[David Costa]

I can assure everybody here that 'Patoka' absolutely did not mean 'slave' in
Miami-Illinois.

Morever, the 'Patoka' were not a Dhegiha group -- as Mark says here, the
term generally indicated the Comanche, a Uto-Aztecan (specifically Numic)
group closely related to the Shoshone. Look in the Handbook of North
American Indians, volume 13, pps. 903 & 939. According to that source, it
was originally used for the Plains Apache, and was transferred to the
Comanches later on, when the Comanches displaced the Plains Apache on the
high plains.

The Miami name for the Comanche is paatoohka, the Shawnee name for them is
paatohka, and the Fox name for them is paatoohka(aha). This term has no
etymology in Algonquian.  Algonquian probably got this name from Siouan. It
is in fact found in several Siouan languages -- John Koontz has looked at
this term in the past, and can give you a handful of Dhegiha cognates and
etymologies for the term, for those of you who don't have access to the
discussion of the term in HNAI 13.

David


----------
From: "Mark-Awakuni Swetland" <mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu>
To: "Siouan List" <siouan at lists.colorado.edu>
Subject: Fw: paduka identity
Date: Thu, Sep 29, 2005, 7:37 am


Aloha All,
Perhaps someone can assist this fellow in his inquiry about the
Patoka/Paduca, please! My response was limited to the Fletcher and La
Flesche source.
Mahalo!
Mark Awakuni-Swetland

----- Original Message -----
From: Barry Haglan <mailto:BarryHaglan at msn.com>
To: Mark-Awakuni Swetland <mailto:mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, September 28, 2005 9:40 AM
Subject: Re: paduka identity

mark, I pestered old John White about the paduca thing, and he said that
when he was going through stuff on the Miami tribe, he kept running into the
term Patoka. There's a river in Indiana named the Patoka River, in the old
Miami-Wea-Piankashaw stomping grounds. He pretty much insisted on the
meaning as slave by the Miamis, and said he thought the whole William Clark
thing of naming the city of Paduca was complete B.S. I have the George Hyde
article on Paduca identity, but the first page is missing, which would be
the part before the migration across the Mississippi. Maybe we'll never know
for sure, but I think it could be the stuff of a juicy manga comic or a
screenplay.
----- Original Message -----
From: Mark-Awakuni Swetland <mailto:mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu>
To: Barry Haglan <mailto:BarryHaglan at msn.com>
Sent: Friday, September 09, 2005 12:03 PM
Subject: Re: paduka identity

Barry,
the Paduka are usually glossed as the contemporary Comache. The Comanche are
a relatively newly formed group of Shoshoni bands emerging from the Great
Basin onto the Southern Great Plains. It is my understanding that they are
classed linguistically as Uto-Aztecan, not Dhegiha/Siouan

This does not seem to match the information and references you are citing. I
cannot suggest an alternative persective to the Mississippi valley
appearance or the "slave" aspect.

In Fletcher and La Flesche "The Omaha Tribe" 1911:49, 79-80, 88 the Padouca
are noted as follows: The Ponca reportedly encountered the Padouca on their
buffalo hunts near the Rocky Mountains. The Ponca and Padouca battled until
a Ponca killed a Padouca warrior, following which the Padouca sued for
peace.

Omaha were reported as knowing the Padouca in their western-most territory,
and knowing of a Padouca village on the Dismal River.

Mark Awakuni-Swetland
----- Original Message -----
From: Barry Haglan <mailto:BarryHaglan at msn.com>
To: mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu <mailto:mawakuni-swetland2 at unl.edu>
Sent: Friday, September 09, 2005 11:35 AM
Subject: paduka identity

dr. a-s, my friend John White, a student of the Illinois-speaking tribes,
told me that the Paduka were a Dhegiha group that didn't cross the
Mississippi until circa 1710. He said Paduka meant "slave" in
Illinois-Miami, and both the Chickasaw and Illini raided them for fresh
genetics. Have you ever heard of anyone calling themselves Paduka? The only
thing I've seen is an old paper by George Hyde that leaves out a lot. Sounds
like a good title for a Tarantino thriller...SEARCH  for the LOST PADUKAS!

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