O/P term for one thousand

[Tom Leonard]

The modern day word for "1000" in Ponca is ku'ge. Ku'ge is also the word for "trunk" or "box". I have had several Ponca elders tell me that ku'ge for "1000" derived from the time treaty payments arrived as 1000 gold coins in a box. Interestingly, I once had an elderly Osage woman tell me that "ku'ge" for "trunk" derived from the verb "k'u" - to give away.....that they used to give away when the trunks of money arrived. Perhaps they are related?

Also, that we should find similar etymologies for "1000" amidst surrounding tribes doesn't surprise me. I am reminded of the Ponca word for "25 cents". The modern day word for "25 cents" is mi'ka tha'wa or mi'ka itha'wa. This is said to be abbreviated from "mi'ka ha itha'wa" - to count a raccoon hide, or what a raccoon hide is worth. If I am not mistaken, do we not find similar etymology for "25 cents" among other Siouan languages?

Tom Leonard
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Jonathan Holmes 
  To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu 
  Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 12:23 PM
  Subject: Re: O/P term for one thousand




  Koontz John E <John.Koontz at colorado.edu> wrote: 
    ...I noticed recently a remark in Dorsey's paper on dwellings, tools, etc.,
    that the Omaha dealt with arrows in standardized sets - there is even a
    word for such a set - and not as individual artifacts. Since sets were
    usually of ten arrows each, it seems on that basis that the urge to count
    by tens may go back at least as far as the introduction of the bow. On
    the other hand, perhaps throwing spears were also handled in sets, though
    maybe smaller ones. Another instance of systematized counting might be the
    use of bundles of sticks to represent honors. Men are reported to have
    recounted their honors by working through their sets of sticks. The
    handgame also involves a system of formal counters, though the modern form
    is fairly recent and I don't know if the counters are earlier.

    Rory - what do you think about the use of kku'ge 'box' for 'thousand'?
    Does this imply that 1000 is a new concept, or is it a new word for an old
    concept? How widespread is 'box' in this sense? I just noticed in the
    texts that kku'ge often appears glossed 'box' when a numerical
    interpretation is clearly meant.

    John,
    If I may offer...in Dr. James H. Howard's work titled "The Ponca Tribe" (BAE Bulletin 195) he states on page 73,

    "The term for one thousand is derived from the fact that the money which the Ponca received for treaty payments came in boxes which contained $1,000 each." 

    Hope it helps,
    Jonathan





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