Siouan ki- 'become (again)', 'return to'

[Blair Rudes]

In a message dated 12/13/2007 11:25:51 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
rankin at ku.edu writes:

All,

Pardon my temporary absence.  We have had no electric  power at my home since 
3:15 p.m. Wednesday.  The REA Cooperative that  provides electricity to our 
part of the county says they will try to have  everythig up and running again 
by Saturday evening, but another storm is  scheduled for Friday night.  

I had not thought of the vertitive  as derived from possessive or dative, but 
I must admit that it took me an  inordinately long time to sort out all the 
various k(h)i's.  There tends  to be at least a little semantic overlap among 
nearly all of them, aspirated  or not.  I had to make a comparative chart of 
all the usual ones before  things became even reasonably clear.  And even then, 
I tended to get  things in the wrong columns.  I've redone it a couple of 
times.   I've toyed with the idea that all the KI's are somehow derived from the 
same  source somehow, but it doesn't work in a way that most comparativists 
would  find convincing.  And, as far as I know, Catawban doesn't help.

If  *k- is the normal vertitive and hi in Daktoan is the normal 'arrive 
here',  then why wouldn't the vertitive of hi be khi?

I seem to recall that  John Koontz had explained the development of all these 
forms in one of his  papers.  I'll have to look for Allan's.

More later as things get  back to normal here.

Bob (cold and in the dark in  Kansas)

________________________________

From:  owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu on behalf of Jan Ullrich
Sent: Thu  12/13/2007 10:26 AM
To: siouan at lists.colorado.edu
Subject: RE: Siouan  ki- 'become (again)', 'return to'



David,

Thanks for  clarifying that. I don't have enough background in historical
and  comparative linguistics to decide between the two ki-, but I do
agree that  vertitives mean "come/go back" rather than "come/go home".
Is it possible  that the possessive ki-  and the 'return' ki- have a
common  source?

Jan


-----Original Message-----
From:  owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu
[mailto:owner-siouan at lists.colorado.edu] On  Behalf Of ROOD DAVID S
Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2007 5:10 PM
To:  siouan at lists.colorado.edu
Subject: RE: Siouan ki- 'become (again)', 'return  to'



Jan, that's how I interpreted Bob's suggestion that the  -ki- 'revert;
become' is historically related to the -ki- of the  vertatives, and
distinct from any of the others.  I think we're saying  that the morpheme

in the vertatives is NOT the possessive.  But  Bob will have to supply
the
cross-linguistic data for that.

David  S. Rood
Dept. of Linguistics
Univ. of Colorado
295 UCB
Boulder, CO  80309-0295
USA
rood at colorado.edu

On Thu, 13 Dec 2007, Jan Ullrich  wrote:

>
>> I'm going to side with Bob on this one.   It seems to me that the
>> basic
>
>> meaning of the  vertatives is not 'toward home' but 'back (again)'.
> Over
>>  and over in the texts we read "i na gli na...." -- 'went there and
>  came
>> back and...' without the concept of 'home' anywhere  around.
>
> I fully agree that the vertitives mean "back" rather  than "home". I
> didn't think that was in contradiction to the  possessive analysis that

> I sided with, but perhaps it is. Or are  you suggesting that the ki-
> that potentially formed the vertitives is  the same ki- 'return back to

> the original state"? I might be  missing some e-mails from this thread
> as it seems my spam filter has  been acting up lately.
>
>> Allan had an explanation for khi  but I've forgotten it -- and I can't
> put
>> my hands on the  paper right now, either.  Bob?
>
> Would be good to  know.
>
> Jan
>



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Bob is correct as far as Catawban (Catawba and Woccon) is concerned. There  
are no prefixes having the form ki- or anything demonstrably akin to it that  
carry meanings comparable to the vertitive, possessive, or dative in these  
languages. The only prefix remotely similar is the Catawba locative proclitic  
duk- 'back' which is used to form verb stems such as duk=hu:- 'come back,  
return' and duk=ra:- 'go back, return'. Given Catawban phonology, duk- should  come 
from earlier *ruk= or *nuk=, and the final *k might be cognate with the  
vertitive in Siouan although there is no good explanation for where the initial  
*ru- or *nu- might have come from.
 
Blair 



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