Fw: Jiwele "when".

[goodtracks at peoplepc.com]

I want to say Thanks to Jill, Bob and John's input.
As per Bob's suggestion, I will post the question to the list for further 
input.
It would be of especial interest if there were a similar feature with 
Winnebago/ Hochank, as well as a the similarity or variations among related 
languages .
Jimm

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Rankin, Robert L" <rankin at ku.edu>
To: <goodtracks at peoplepc.com>; "JILL D. GREER" <jgreer at mo-net.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2007 10:31 AM
Subject: Jiwele "when".


Dear Jill and Jimm,
A number of languages distinguish between "when in the past" and "when in 
the future", so Jimm may be exactly right about the distrubution.  I'd say 
to post the data on the Siouan List and see if others have the same 
division.

All the best,
 Bob

------------------------------------------------------------
I have a question about the difference in use of  "-da (when; at)" and "-i 
(when; before):
Examples found:

Rusdánñe^i hinhiwi ke,    It was finished when we got there.
^Oñe^i hinhiwi ke,          He was shot/ wounded before we arrived.
Ch^ehi hinahe^i  hinhiwi ke,  When we arrived they were killing it.
Irusdan ch^ehiñe^i hinhiwi ke,   They had all ready killed it when we got 
there.

Eswena jida hine hñe ki,  Maybe when he comes/ arrives here, we will go.
Ñiyuda chi us^ena ke,     Whenever it rains, the house/ roof leaks.
Ida hinhida  waruje rigidumi hñe ke,  When we get there, I will buy you 
dinner.

>>From my examples above, it would seem that the first is used for past 
actions, while the second is used for current and future actions.  What's 
your thoughts??



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jill Greer" <Greer-J at MSSU.EDU>
To: <goodtracks at peoplepc.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2007 10:38 AM
Subject: Re: USE OF "-DA" & "-I"


Jimm,
>>From the examples you give, that seems like a logical explanation.  I need 
to dig out my Master's thesis to refresh my memory on those particles.  As I 
recollect,  there was a spatial dimension that related to i- being within 
the view or eyesight of the speaker, while da was more distant.  Perhaps 
those spatial metaphors are extended to time as well?  That is pretty common 
in deictic elements.  My only question is why i- is appearing as a suffix 
here.  I thought it was primarily a prefix, but I guess the language is more 
flexible...
Jill:

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Koontz John E" <John.Koontz at Colorado.EDU>
To: <goodtracks at peoplepc.com>
Cc: "JILL D. GREER" <jgreer at mo-net.com>; "JILL Greer" <Greer-J at MSSU.EDU>
Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2007 10:26 AM
Subject: Re: USE OF "-DA" & "-I"


On Tue, 8 May 2007 goodtracks at peoplepc.com wrote:
>
> >From my examples above, it would seem that the first is used for past
> >actions, while the second is used for current and future actions.
> >What's your thoughts??

I'd say that's pretty much what it looks like to me, too.  The -i is used
for temporal succession:

when ..., then (at that time) ...
after ..., ....

The -da looks like it has to do with conditions, which could be
characterized as involving futurity or irrealis.

if (perhaps)/when(ever) ..., then (in that case) ....

The use of -ever in English translations (or its potential use) - as with
eswena jida - helps clarify this as involving conditioning or real ~
unreal possibilities (irrealis).  English uses the same set of
conjunctions for both these cases, making it harder to see what's going
on.