Looking for help with "Sanganasch"
Anthony Grant
Granta at EDGEHILL.AC.UK
Wed Aug 21 10:43:28 UTC 2013
Dear all:
I presented a paper on this at the Siouan-Caddoan conference (I think) in 1995. I’ll scan the handout I did in and send it to the list as an attachment tom orrow. Rory has a few forms I didn’;t get but I got quite a few.
Best
Anthony
From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Greer, Jill
Sent: 20 August 2013 23:01
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: Looking for help with "Sanganasch"
Yep, and the Ioways were known to have made it up to Quebec at some point, my memory is fuzzy at this point on the source, but it was a military venture, so it has to be 1812 or even earlier - French and Indian, or Revolutionary (chronologically out of order, sorry). Yet another occasion for needing a name for Englishmen aside from the fur trade and the Hudson Bay Company, of course.
From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Bryan James Gordon
Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2013 4:30 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>
Subject: Re: Looking for help with "Sanganasch"
Rory's 1812 idea is a good one. I had been thinking of the Potawatomi Trail of Death as a possible way for the word to make its way to the Central Plains, but that didn't happen until after Maximilian's visit.
2013/8/20 Campbell, Sky <sky at omtribe.org<mailto:sky at omtribe.org>>
Oh, and I forgot to answer another question. Near as I can tell, both “Sanganasch” and “ra-kra-she” are Otoe (or Otoe-Missouria).
Sky Campbell, B. A.
Language Director
Otoe-Missouria Tribe
580-723-4466 ext. 111<tel:580-723-4466%20ext.%20111>
sky at omtribe.org<mailto:sky at omtribe.org>
From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>] On Behalf Of Rory Larson
Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2013 3:49 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>
Subject: Re: Looking for help with "Sanganasch"
Hi Sky,
I’ll second (or third) what Bryan and Bob said, and add a couple more Algonquian variants I found a few years ago for a class paper I did:
French: les anglois l e s a n g l oi s
Micmac: aĝalasiew a ĝ a l a s iew
aglasiew a g l a s iew
Cree: aakayaasimowin aa k a y aa s imowin
Ojibwe: zhaaganaash(i) zh aa g a n aa sh (i)
` Otoe: sanganasch s a n g a n a sch
ra-kra-she r a k r a sh e
If languages didn’t have an /l/, they might use a /y/, an /r/ or an /n/ as a substitute. Also, probably none of them had the complex diphthongs that a lot of European languages have, or the consonant clusters, so imitating a sound like /glwaz/ might have taken some jiggering.
I’m not quite clear from your description what language these “Otoe” versions are from. Are the Maximilian and Dorsey versions both Otoe? Or is one of them Ioway or Missouria? If they are both supposed to be from the same language, it’s notable that the Maximilian sanganasch term is so similar to the Ojibwe form and the Dorsey rakrashe term so disparate. Perhaps the rakrashe term is the older, Siouan, rendition, and the sanganasch term is a later borrowing from Ojibwe? If so, I would guess that the borrowing might have dated to about the time of the War of 1812, when tribes from the Great Lakes to the Missouri were forming broad alliances crosscutting traditional language groups, with or against the British.
Welcome to the list!
Rory
From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Campbell, Sky
Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2013 1:04 PM
To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU<mailto:SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>
Subject: Looking for help with "Sanganasch"
This is my first email to this list so I’ll introduce myself.
My name is Sky Campbell and I am the Language Director for the Otoe-Missouria tribe. I’ve been here just over four years now and we’ve come a long way in our understanding of the language, gathering historical information, and recording tribal members.
I am currently wrestling with the term “Sanganasch” which is from Maximilian’s word list (via Thwaites). Maximilian translates it as “Englishman.” Page 109 of the Handbook of North American Indians, Vol. 13, says it is “ultimately from older French (le)s anglois ‘the English’.” I’ve attached this page to this email but I don’t know how this list will treat attachments. This page also lists variations from other tribes such as “sagdášį” and “sagdášį” (Santee-Sisseton), “šagláša” (Teton), “Ságanasch” (Omaha), etc.
Based on Maximilian’s spelling for sound, it could roughly be said as “sahng-gah-nash.”
No matter how I try, I can’t see any real similarities between “(le)s anglois” and “Sanganasch” in my mind. I can (just!) see “(le)s anglois” in “Sanganasch” (underlined parts).
So I spoke with a friend of mine who lives in France. He was originally from here but has lived there over 20 years now. He also couldn’t see how “(le)s anglois” could be shoehorned into “Sanganasch.” Since he is fluent in French I asked for his take and he did mention what he thought it might be and that was “sale ganache” which he said is a sort of slang for dirty face, ugly face, detestable, untrustworthy, and several more unflattering terms. He said the “ganache” was (aside from the dessert!) something along the lines of a lower jaw of a 4-legged animal. But he noted the lack of an “L” in the term and I told him from an Otoe-Missouria perspective, there isn’t an “L” (as in Larry) sound really but the rolling “r” sort of covers that area and that it might be possible that it was just skipped or contracted over time. He also mentioned “sang” (blood) as well.
I have no idea how accurate this term could be. But if it is, it would be very funny to have the French somewhat badmouthing their English (and maybe Spanish) competitors by giving the tribes a less than favorable translation for them. But for this to be true, this “slang” would have to have been in use almost 200 years ago and I have no idea if it was. Plus it looks like its use would have had to have been pretty wide-spread since other tribes had a similar term.
So that is what I am looking at. Any feedback, any avenues to check out, any sources, etc. would be greatly appreciated. If this is some form of “(le)s anglois”, I’d just like to know how. Or if anyone can tell me if I am getting close.
Also, if it helps, James Owen Dorsey had the term “ra-kra-she” for “Englishman.”
Sky Campbell, B. A.
Language Director
Otoe-Missouria Tribe
580-723-4466 ext. 111<tel:580-723-4466%20ext.%20111>
sky at omtribe.org<mailto:sky at omtribe.org>
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Bryan James Gordon, MA
Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology
University of Arizona
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