Looking for help with "Sanganasch"

Fri Aug 23 15:28:04 UTC 2013

While I have enjoyed the discussion and particularly liked 'sale ganache' "dirty mug", I think the explanation in terms of Middle French 'les anglois' is pretty well established.  And although it was no doubt passed from tribe to tribe via several native languages, it is probably that French traders also helped spread the term.  "Dirty mug" or "dirty faces" isn't too far off from the origin of Desmoines though.

Bob
________________________________
From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Campbell, Sky [sky at OMTRIBE.ORG]
Sent: Friday, August 23, 2013 9:40 AM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: Looking for help with "Sanganasch"

Jamie, to be honest, I don’t know.  It is definitely close enough to catch my attention (as it did yours).  Especially because of your mention of it being derogatory which my friend suggested with “sale ganache.”

Jimm, thanks for the confirmation on “Lag-gar-ash.”  It sure stood out to me but I wanted to be sure I wasn’t seeing something I wanted to see.

George, I did a quick search on that individual (Billy Caldwell) and it seems he was half Pottawatomi (Algonquian language).  It is fascinating to sort of see the route this name took through the decades.  I am slowly getting my mind wrapped around Bob’s matching of Sanganasch to “les anglois” but I think I am getting a feel for it.  It is taking some time for me to get used to the changes but that is part of the fun ☺.  I am very anxious to see John Koontz’s  information on this term.

Sky Campbell, B. A.
Language Director
Otoe-Missouria Tribe
580-723-4466 ext. 111
sky at omtribe.org

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jamie Carpenter
Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2013 10:00 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: Looking for help with "Sanganasch"

Not sure how this would work historically, but could it be related to the Gaelic "Sassenach" (generally a derogatory term for the English)?

-Jamie
Amateur Linguist

On Aug 20, 2013, at 12:03 PM, "Campbell, Sky" <sky at OMTRIBE.ORG<mailto:sky at OMTRIBE.ORG>> wrote:

This is my first email to this list so I’ll introduce myself.

My name is Sky Campbell and I am the Language Director for the Otoe-Missouria tribe.  I’ve been here just over four years now and we’ve come a long way in our understanding of the language, gathering historical information, and recording tribal members.

I am currently wrestling with the term “Sanganasch” which is from Maximilian’s word list (via Thwaites).  Maximilian translates it as “Englishman.”  Page 109 of the Handbook of North American Indians, Vol. 13, says it is “ultimately from older French (le)s anglois ‘the English’.”  I’ve attached this page to this email but I don’t know how this list will treat attachments.  This page also lists variations from other tribes such as “sagdášį” and “sagdášį” (Santee-Sisseton), “šagláša” (Teton), “Ságanasch” (Omaha), etc.

Based on Maximilian’s spelling for sound, it could roughly be said as “sahng-gah-nash.”

No matter how I try, I can’t see any real similarities between “(le)s anglois” and “Sanganasch” in my mind.  I can (just!) see “(le)s anglois” in “Sanganasch” (underlined parts).

So I spoke with a friend of mine who lives in France.  He was originally from here but has lived there over 20 years now.  He also couldn’t see how “(le)s anglois” could be shoehorned into “Sanganasch.”  Since he is fluent in French I asked for his take and he did mention what he thought it might be and that was “sale ganache” which he said is a sort of slang for dirty face, ugly face, detestable, untrustworthy, and several more unflattering terms.  He said the “ganache” was (aside from the dessert!) something along the lines of a lower jaw of a 4-legged animal.  But he noted the lack of an “L” in the term and I told him from an Otoe-Missouria perspective, there isn’t an “L” (as in Larry) sound really but the rolling “r” sort of covers that area and that it might be possible that it was just skipped or contracted over time.  He also mentioned “sang” (blood) as well.

I have no idea how accurate this term could be.  But if it is, it would be very funny to have the French somewhat badmouthing their English (and maybe Spanish) competitors by giving the tribes a less than favorable translation for them.  But for this to be true, this “slang” would have to have been in use almost 200 years ago and I have no idea if it was.  Plus it looks like its use would have had to have been pretty wide-spread since other tribes had a similar term.

So that is what I am looking at.  Any feedback, any avenues to check out, any sources, etc. would be greatly appreciated.  If this is some form of “(le)s anglois”, I’d just like to know how.  Or if anyone can tell me if I am getting close.

Also, if it helps, James Owen Dorsey had the term “ra-kra-she” for “Englishman.”

Sky Campbell, B. A.
Language Director
Otoe-Missouria Tribe
580-723-4466 ext. 111
sky at omtribe.org<mailto:sky at omtribe.org>

    <Handbook of North American Indians, Vol. 13, page 109.pdf>

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/siouan/attachments/20130823/680066ea/attachment.htm>