Saponi Name Origin and Meaning

Sat Jun 22 22:20:13 UTC 2013

> any thoughts on this line of reasonings and questions for the Saponi name origins and meanings?
There is also discussion on the Tutelo word sa:p which Oliverio has on pg.271 meaning flat, level or shallow. sa:p oni: flat/shallow/level/ tree.
I don't see why there would be anything more than coincidence with 'flat'.
> It was pionted out to me though it is the wrong word order. Properly put together it would be oni: sa:p for shallow tree. So guess that wasn't it.
I'd guess not.  There is a basic problem with assuming that tribal names have some identifiable meaning.  Most of them simply don't.  If they had any original meaning, it's been lost.  The words for the Ponca, Kansa, Osage and Ioway have no identifiable meaning.  There are folk analyses and stories, but no solid etymologies.  On the other hand, Omaha and Quapaw do evidently have etymologies as 'upstream' and 'downstream' people.
> Does Saponi mean "Red Earth People"? Acu:ti = Red
Amą: = Earth
Yesą = People (alternate for people is Relative – Hadaq, Nedewahe.per Meuse pg. 73; hatak = cousin per Oliverio pg. 191)
I'm not sure what you're driving at here.  I don't think there's any evidence for 'red earth people'.
> Monasukapanough
“But the horses were directed to a ford about a mile higher, called by the Indians Moni-seep, which signifies, in their jargon, shallow-water.”--- William Byrd (1728)
Yes, that's what moni seep means OK.
> Sa:p = Shallow (Oliverio pg.329)
Mani: = Water
Mani: sa:p (water shallow) {Moni-seep of William Byrd}
Yes, those are apparently the same.  I don't know what spelling rules Byrd used or the exact value of his letters.
> If it is the other way round Sa:p mani: then it’s a possible; but I tried that with oni: sa:p (tree shallow) but forgot the order and made it sa:p oni: . Is the answer somewhere among the various spellings of Saponi such as:
Paanese (for Sa-paahese).-Albany treaty (1789) in Hale, N. W. States, 1849, p. 70. Saps.-Lawson (1714), History of Carolina, 1860, p. 89.
Sapan.-Lederer, Discoveries, 1672, map.
Sapon.-Ibid., p. 2.
Saponas.-Lawson, op. cit., p. 83.
Sapones.-Drake, Book of the Indians, 1848, p. xii.
Sapongs.-Batts (1671) in N. Y. Doc. Col. Hist., vol, iii, p. 194 (misprint, g for y).
Saponeys.-Johnson (1763), ibid., vol. vii, p. 582.
Saponees.-Knight (1712) in N. C. Records, vol. i, p. 866.
Saponi.-Byrd (1728), Hint. Dividing Line, vol. i, p. 75.
Saponie.-Document of 1711 in N. C. Records, vol. i, p. 808.
Saponys.-Document of 1728 in Colonial Virginia State Papers, 1875, vol. i, p. 215.
Sapoones.-Croghan (1765) in Monthly American Journal of Geology, 1831, p. 271.
Sapoonies.-Hutchins (1768) in Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1787, p. 169.
Sappona.-Pollock (1712) in N. C. Records, vol. i, p. 884.
Sapponces:-Albany Conference (1717) in N. Y. Documentary Colonial History, vol. v, p. 490 (misprint, c for e).
Sapponees.-N. C. Council (1727) in N. C. Records, vol. ii, p. 674.
Sapponeys.-Document of 1709 in Colonial Virginia State Papers, 1875, vol. i, p. 131.
Sapponie.-N. C. Council (1726) in N. C. Records, vol. ii, p. 643.
Sapponnee.-Albany Conference (1717) in N. Y. Doc. Col. Hist., vol. v., p. 490.
Sappony.-N. C. Council (1727) in N. C. Records, vol. ii, p. 674.
All these are attempts by Europeans and White Americans to write down Indian words that contained sounds and sequences of sounds that were unfamiliar to them.
I've also seen Sapinney.
> Paanese (for Sa-paahese), what would the aahese be?
No way to know.
Although Swanton states that Paanese is not connected to the word Pawnee, Pani and Panis is a direct corruption of Pawnee as shown in Robert W. Venable’s explanation concerning the Indian slave trade and the accompanying trade jargon. ---“American Indian History: Five Centuries of Conflict and Coexistence”, Vol. I Conquest of a Continent, 1492 – 1783, by Robert W. Venables Pg.206
Actually, it's the spelling Pawnee that is an attempt to render the syllables pa-ni.  As far as I  know there is no specific evidence that the Pawnees were ever east of the Mississippi.
"...in which it is stated that the "Paanese" (Sa-poonese)..."---Hale also found in Hall, James (?). Early History of the Northwestern States, p. 70. Buffalo and Auburn, 1849.
> Would that be Sa:p oni:-se? If the word order is wrong is it possible that there is something being missed in certain instances regarding compound nouns that is different under certain situations in Saponi than for other Siouan languages? Or is it more probable that by the time Hale went to record these things that the informants had already taken on Iroquois language rules? I don't know what the language rules are for Iroquois/Cayuga/Seneca.
Those are reasonable questions.  Certainly there are no Siouan languages in which descriptive modifiers precede the noun.  I doubt that Iroquois influence was that great at the time Hale did his work, but I can't say for sure.
> Sapan (pronounced [ˈsaːpːʌn]),[13] cornmeal mush, a staple of Lenape cuisine; "sapàn". Lenape Talking Dictionary. Retrieved June 26, 2011   Interestingly the word in Algonquin for boiled Indian meal is Supawn or Sa-pon and translates into “softened by water”. See, “Handbook of American Indians North of Mexico”, by Frederick Webb Hodge Pg.652.
I don't know that it would have anything to do with the Siouan name though.  I wish I had answers for you.

Bob

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