Siouan tongue twisters?

Wed Nov 13 17:17:53 UTC 2013

Hello all (and especially Randy),

A colleague has been doing archival research on Lowie's fieldwork and found
in his notes a Crow tongue twister listed as told by Max Big-Man. I've
attached a photo.

I won't try to type out the Crow here, but it looks like Lowie was
collecting a series of words related to the verb "hang" that all included
-tsiky (e.g. awi'kyotsiky, 'I hung something over'), and the tongue twister
begins tsi- and has a lot of tsi and tse sequences in it, so maybe that's
what prompted his consultant to tell it.

Lowie's English gloss, as far as I can make out, is: "Chipmunk shinbone
[illegible] of it medicine rock gets a hold on both side smokes with
glen[?] eye."

If anyone recognizes this tongue twister or knows what it's saying, my
colleague and I are curious and would appreciate any insight you could
share.

Best,
Saul

On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 9:45 PM, Saul Schwartz <sschwart at princeton.edu>wrote:

> Just want to thank everyone who responded to my question and contributed
> to this discussion, especially Randy for coming up with the Lowie reference!
> All best,
> Saul
>
>
> On Thu, May 16, 2013 at 1:21 PM, Jimm G. GoodTracks <jgoodtracks at gmail.com
> > wrote:
>
>>   Jill:  Aho, Pi ke.  Saul is the one to ask about ELAN. Last summer he
>> and another woman at KU coached me on the use of the program.  I am aware
>> of its several useful applications, but not on how to enable the functions,
>> sorts, sounds, etc.   I was a poor dense student for Saul who gave up in
>> exasperation of my natural inept denseness.  Like yourself, I have enough
>> on my desk right now that any attempt to upload more instructions,
>> information, etc. would only overload my system, causing undue delays to my
>> current delays.
>>
>> But being you are blessed with a sharp mind and quick aptitude, you sure
>> will master the program with the right instructor.  Keep posted on all the
>> interesting stuff going on over at your camp.  I am down to the final two
>> scripts of Film III.  I think I’ll celebrate when all done.
>>
>> We will miss you at Conference, but realize you are having an adventurous
>> time in DC.
>> Jimm
>>
>>  *From:* Greer, Jill <Greer-J at MSSU.EDU>
>> *Sent:* Thursday, May 16, 2013 1:59 PM
>> *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
>> *Subject:* Re: Siouan tongue twisters?
>>
>>
>> I’ll do my best, Jimm.   You’re right,  I owe it to those elders.  Good
>> news, I have a new laptop, and I downloaded ELAN last night.  Wasn’t it the
>> one Iren and Dave Rood were so excited about last year?  I’m hoping to get
>> some video material started, but learning new software is not really my
>> strong suit.  Any advice from you all on using ELAN?  I also downloaded the
>> Doulos font from SIL, and I think I actually installed it on my Mac, which
>> didn’t want to let me use any non-Mac material….
>>
>>
>>
>> Jill
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf
>> Of *Jimm G. GoodTracks
>> *Sent:* Sunday, May 12, 2013 9:50 AM
>> *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
>> *Subject:* Re: Siouan tongue twisters?
>>
>>
>>
>> Yes, Jill!
>>
>> Do go through “all my field notes” and doing that in the near future
>> rather than the indefinite “whenever.”  The kind of findings/ anecdotes/
>> statements gleaned from our late Ioway, Otoe-Missouria (IOM) Elders who are
>> worthy to be included in the encyclopedic entries of the revised IOM
>> Dictionary.   I am including statements, discussions from present day
>> tribal members as well, such as stated in Email correspondence and on a
>> more grand scale, the recent award winning documentary film “The Lost
>> Nation:  The Ioway” (Parts I, II, III), by the highly recognized film
>> makers, Kelly & Tammy Rundle of Fourth Wall Films, Moline, Ill.
>>
>>
>>
>> By the way, I am going to make a committed effort to *complete* all
>> scheduled IOM Dictionary entries in the next three year AT MAX, and then, I
>> will transfer the working files to CD in preparation for sending all to a
>> printer for producing a *Hard Copy and distribution.*  That would be
>> approximately Dec, 2016.  Forty three years in the compiling and production
>> of an ultimate and excellent IOM Dictionary is sufficient for one life time
>> (my opinion).  We all know that dictionary work is endless, and one needs
>> draw the line.  I’ll be 73yo at that time, my grandson Sage PagranDahe will
>> be 11yo, and on the verge of middle school years.  I will be needing to
>> give attention to this.  I’d prefer he accomplish these years in Antigua,
>> where Private Schools Education have high standards without the gauntlet of
>> state tests as teaching standards, and also there is less negative learning
>> from unfortunate peers who come from homes/ families with low standards &
>> lax supervision of their children.  It was my experience in Lawrence with
>> my children and grandchildren that while the Lawrence middle schools and
>> staff are excellent in all other aspects, the influence from the flow of
>> all manner of children from diversified backgrounds interfered with our
>> family and lead to much chaos, confusion and visits with/ to the juvenile
>> system and courts, where I came well known, but which served in the rapid
>> custody of Hintagwa when his parental family (my son) disintegrated.  I
>> want to spare Hintagwa a possible repeat of these ill scenarios.
>>
>>
>>
>> However, bottom line may be that I will not locate a preferred Antigua
>> private middle schools with a fully balanced curriculum.  In which case, I
>> have identified the near to White Cloud private Sacred Heart School in
>> Falls City, NE (a full 1~12year school) as an alternative, which offers
>> tailored small classes, and student focused attention with high academic
>> achievement among students within the state educational standards.
>>
>>
>>
>> So, it is imperative that between you there, Saul in Princeton (at the
>> moment) that we strive and commit to completing the Ioway Otoe (IOM)
>> grammars (professional/ lay grammars) and any undone work that should be
>> included into the hard copy print of the unabridged exhaustive resource
>> Dictionary.  Anecdotes and conversations such as you and Saul shared below
>> are precious, and mostly none-existent in the contemporary acculturated/
>> assimilated three communities in Kansas & Oklahoma.  I realize your busy,
>> but we ALL are busy.  It is timely to complete long delayed tasks so that
>> the information may be shared with and for the common good of both the
>> Báxoje Jiwére Native communities, the public domain and Academia.
>>
>>
>>
>> I trust and pray you take heed of this advisory.  Remember what our
>> Elders, their words they shared with us, namely:
>>
>> Ix^án swíhsje ke;  Ama ch^é tórigi áre ke.  Hánwegi dagúre^sun
>> hin^unsdunwi ke.  Tanhéda hintúgan Bi mángrida dáhahajena  aréchi xáme
>> gigrúnje taho.
>>
>>
>>
>> Gasunhsji  hadádana ke.  Tórigunda
>>
>> Jimm
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Greer, Jill <Greer-J at MSSU.EDU>
>>
>> *Sent:* Saturday, May 11, 2013 11:59 PM
>>
>> *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
>>
>> *Subject:* Re: Siouan tongue twisters?
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks, Saul -  Actually, Grandpa Truman still talked about the number
>> 888 -  he would just laugh about it.  I can't remember any more right now,
>> but if I ever get to go through all my field notes...
>>
>>
>>
>> of course, the sound symbolism he enjoyed too -  the word for sneeze was
>> SO dead on target soundwise -  he?shi (sorry, no keyboard symbols here -
>> it's a glottal stop, and the sh is as in English..)
>>
>>
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Jill Greer
>>
>>
>>  ------------------------------
>>
>> *From:* Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Saul
>> Schwartz [sschwart at PRINCETON.EDU]
>> *Sent:* Saturday, May 11, 2013 2:54 PM
>> *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
>> *Subject:* Siouan tongue twisters?
>>
>> Hello,
>>
>> Just wanted to share an amusing anecdote I encountered when I was in the
>> American Philosophical Society Library recently going through Gordon
>> Marsh's correspondence with Franz Boas.
>>
>> The following is in a letter from Marsh, dated August 6, 1936, updating
>> Boas on the progress of his fieldwork with Chiwere speakers near Perkins,
>> Oklahoma:
>>
>> "I can say a few words and simple sentences and can ask for food at the
>> table. The Indians get a great kick out of hearing me talk.
>>
>> Sometimes I read them parts of my text, a lot of which they have never
>> heard, and they say it sounds very natural to them and they all understand
>> it.
>>
>> They are pleased when I say 8888 for them. It is supposed to be the
>> hardest thing to say and some of them say they can’t say it themselves. It
>> is simply:
>>
>> kóge glelábliⁿ gléblaⁿ húyaⁿ glelábliⁿnaⁿ gléblaⁿ glelábliⁿ aglíⁿ
>> glelábliⁿ."
>>
>> While I know that tongue twisters are a recognized form verbal play and
>> source of amusement in many languages, this is the first time I've come
>> across a Siouan one.
>>
>> If there are other examples of Siouan tongue twisters, I'd be interested
>> to hear about them.
>>
>> Be well,
>> Saul
>>
>>
>>
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>
>
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