Siouan tongue twisters?

[Saul Schwartz]

Ah, excellent detective work, George! Thank you for tracking that down.

Maybe it's just the way Lowie wrote it in his notes, but it almost reads
like a couplet: two lines of 13 syllables, the first ending in
bacóritsi'tse and the second in rɛǝxe. It strikes me as somewhat different
in its poetic aspects than the Chiwere 8,888 example with all the gl-
sequences or the Crow Nez Perce example, which also has a dense
concentration of similar sounds. I wonder what a native speaker's take on
it would be in terms of what makes it tricky to say or otherwise
aesthetically pleasing/amusing.

In any case, I'll be interested to hear your thoughts on it, Randy.

All best,
Saul



On Wed, Nov 13, 2013 at 3:32 PM, George Wilmes <george.wilmes at gmail.com>wrote:

> Hi Saul,
>
> In the ancient and venerable Colorado Siouan Archive, there is something
> very similar in one of Lowie's word lists, which was keypunched as follows:
>
> 1 TSIPAPU*':C
> 2 CHIPMUNK, SQUIRREL
> 3 NOUN
> 4 TSIPAPU*':C ITSU*':P BAKU*TA BACO*':RITSI'HTSE ASA*'HKA
>   RU*':P DU*TSE O':PI*': ICDE R"E*'6XE
> 5 THE CHIPMUNK ALONGSIDE OF A SHINBONE GETS HOLD OF BOTH SIDES
>   OF A MEDICINE-ROCK AND SMOKES WITH A GLOSSY EYE
>   (A TONGUE-TWISTER, TOLD BY +MAX +BIG-MAN)
> 11 +P. 164
>
> I believe the source for that transcription was this book:
>
> http://www.ucpress.edu/op.php?isbn=9780520007741
>
> Here is the particular page in the book:
>
>
> http://books.google.com/books?id=27TpGhZ9dWoC&pg=PA164&dq=lowie+crow+word+lists+chipmunk&hl=en&sa=X&ei=T_2DUu7gENSA2QWuoICwDw&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=lowie%20crow%20word%20lists%20chipmunk&f=false
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 13, 2013 at 11:17 AM, Saul Schwartz <sschwart at princeton.edu>wrote:
>
>> Hello all (and especially Randy),
>>
>> A colleague has been doing archival research on Lowie's fieldwork and
>> found in his notes a Crow tongue twister listed as told by Max Big-Man.
>> I've attached a photo.
>>
>> I won't try to type out the Crow here, but it looks like Lowie was
>> collecting a series of words related to the verb "hang" that all included
>> -tsiky (e.g. awi'kyotsiky, 'I hung something over'), and the tongue twister
>> begins tsi- and has a lot of tsi and tse sequences in it, so maybe that's
>> what prompted his consultant to tell it.
>>
>> Lowie's English gloss, as far as I can make out, is: "Chipmunk shinbone
>> [illegible] of it medicine rock gets a hold on both side smokes with
>> glen[?] eye."
>>
>> If anyone recognizes this tongue twister or knows what it's saying, my
>> colleague and I are curious and would appreciate any insight you could
>> share.
>>
>> Best,
>> Saul
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 9:45 PM, Saul Schwartz <sschwart at princeton.edu>wrote:
>>
>>> Just want to thank everyone who responded to my question and contributed
>>> to this discussion, especially Randy for coming up with the Lowie reference!
>>> All best,
>>> Saul
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, May 16, 2013 at 1:21 PM, Jimm G. GoodTracks <
>>> jgoodtracks at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>   Jill:  Aho, Pi ke.  Saul is the one to ask about ELAN. Last summer
>>>> he and another woman at KU coached me on the use of the program.  I am
>>>> aware of its several useful applications, but not on how to enable the
>>>> functions, sorts, sounds, etc.   I was a poor dense student for Saul who
>>>> gave up in exasperation of my natural inept denseness.  Like yourself, I
>>>> have enough on my desk right now that any attempt to upload more
>>>> instructions, information, etc. would only overload my system, causing
>>>> undue delays to my current delays.
>>>>
>>>> But being you are blessed with a sharp mind and quick aptitude, you
>>>> sure will master the program with the right instructor.  Keep posted on all
>>>> the interesting stuff going on over at your camp.  I am down to the final
>>>> two scripts of Film III.  I think I’ll celebrate when all done.
>>>>
>>>> We will miss you at Conference, but realize you are having an
>>>> adventurous time in DC.
>>>> Jimm
>>>>
>>>>  *From:* Greer, Jill <Greer-J at MSSU.EDU>
>>>> *Sent:* Thursday, May 16, 2013 1:59 PM
>>>> *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
>>>> *Subject:* Re: Siouan tongue twisters?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I’ll do my best, Jimm.   You’re right,  I owe it to those elders.  Good
>>>> news, I have a new laptop, and I downloaded ELAN last night.  Wasn’t it the
>>>> one Iren and Dave Rood were so excited about last year?  I’m hoping to get
>>>> some video material started, but learning new software is not really my
>>>> strong suit.  Any advice from you all on using ELAN?  I also downloaded the
>>>> Doulos font from SIL, and I think I actually installed it on my Mac, which
>>>> didn’t want to let me use any non-Mac material….
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Jill
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf
>>>> Of *Jimm G. GoodTracks
>>>> *Sent:* Sunday, May 12, 2013 9:50 AM
>>>> *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
>>>> *Subject:* Re: Siouan tongue twisters?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yes, Jill!
>>>>
>>>> Do go through “all my field notes” and doing that in the near future
>>>> rather than the indefinite “whenever.”  The kind of findings/ anecdotes/
>>>> statements gleaned from our late Ioway, Otoe-Missouria (IOM) Elders who are
>>>> worthy to be included in the encyclopedic entries of the revised IOM
>>>> Dictionary.   I am including statements, discussions from present day
>>>> tribal members as well, such as stated in Email correspondence and on a
>>>> more grand scale, the recent award winning documentary film “The Lost
>>>> Nation:  The Ioway” (Parts I, II, III), by the highly recognized film
>>>> makers, Kelly & Tammy Rundle of Fourth Wall Films, Moline, Ill.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> By the way, I am going to make a committed effort to *complete* all
>>>> scheduled IOM Dictionary entries in the next three year AT MAX, and then, I
>>>> will transfer the working files to CD in preparation for sending all to a
>>>> printer for producing a *Hard Copy and distribution.*  That would be
>>>> approximately Dec, 2016.  Forty three years in the compiling and production
>>>> of an ultimate and excellent IOM Dictionary is sufficient for one life time
>>>> (my opinion).  We all know that dictionary work is endless, and one needs
>>>> draw the line.  I’ll be 73yo at that time, my grandson Sage PagranDahe will
>>>> be 11yo, and on the verge of middle school years.  I will be needing to
>>>> give attention to this.  I’d prefer he accomplish these years in Antigua,
>>>> where Private Schools Education have high standards without the gauntlet of
>>>> state tests as teaching standards, and also there is less negative learning
>>>> from unfortunate peers who come from homes/ families with low standards &
>>>> lax supervision of their children.  It was my experience in Lawrence with
>>>> my children and grandchildren that while the Lawrence middle schools and
>>>> staff are excellent in all other aspects, the influence from the flow of
>>>> all manner of children from diversified backgrounds interfered with our
>>>> family and lead to much chaos, confusion and visits with/ to the juvenile
>>>> system and courts, where I came well known, but which served in the rapid
>>>> custody of Hintagwa when his parental family (my son) disintegrated.  I
>>>> want to spare Hintagwa a possible repeat of these ill scenarios.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> However, bottom line may be that I will not locate a preferred Antigua
>>>> private middle schools with a fully balanced curriculum.  In which case, I
>>>> have identified the near to White Cloud private Sacred Heart School in
>>>> Falls City, NE (a full 1~12year school) as an alternative, which offers
>>>> tailored small classes, and student focused attention with high academic
>>>> achievement among students within the state educational standards.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> So, it is imperative that between you there, Saul in Princeton (at the
>>>> moment) that we strive and commit to completing the Ioway Otoe (IOM)
>>>> grammars (professional/ lay grammars) and any undone work that should be
>>>> included into the hard copy print of the unabridged exhaustive resource
>>>> Dictionary.  Anecdotes and conversations such as you and Saul shared below
>>>> are precious, and mostly none-existent in the contemporary acculturated/
>>>> assimilated three communities in Kansas & Oklahoma.  I realize your busy,
>>>> but we ALL are busy.  It is timely to complete long delayed tasks so that
>>>> the information may be shared with and for the common good of both the
>>>> Báxoje Jiwére Native communities, the public domain and Academia.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I trust and pray you take heed of this advisory.  Remember what our
>>>> Elders, their words they shared with us, namely:
>>>>
>>>> Ix^án swíhsje ke;  Ama ch^é tórigi áre ke.  Hánwegi dagúre^sun
>>>> hin^unsdunwi ke.  Tanhéda hintúgan Bi mángrida dáhahajena  aréchi xáme
>>>> gigrúnje taho.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Gasunhsji  hadádana ke.  Tórigunda
>>>>
>>>> Jimm
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *From:* Greer, Jill <Greer-J at MSSU.EDU>
>>>>
>>>> *Sent:* Saturday, May 11, 2013 11:59 PM
>>>>
>>>> *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
>>>>
>>>> *Subject:* Re: Siouan tongue twisters?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thanks, Saul -  Actually, Grandpa Truman still talked about the number
>>>> 888 -  he would just laugh about it.  I can't remember any more right now,
>>>> but if I ever get to go through all my field notes...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> of course, the sound symbolism he enjoyed too -  the word for sneeze
>>>> was SO dead on target soundwise -  he?shi (sorry, no keyboard symbols here
>>>> - it's a glottal stop, and the sh is as in English..)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>> Jill Greer
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> *From:* Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Saul
>>>> Schwartz [sschwart at PRINCETON.EDU]
>>>> *Sent:* Saturday, May 11, 2013 2:54 PM
>>>> *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
>>>> *Subject:* Siouan tongue twisters?
>>>>
>>>> Hello,
>>>>
>>>> Just wanted to share an amusing anecdote I encountered when I was in
>>>> the American Philosophical Society Library recently going through Gordon
>>>> Marsh's correspondence with Franz Boas.
>>>>
>>>> The following is in a letter from Marsh, dated August 6, 1936, updating
>>>> Boas on the progress of his fieldwork with Chiwere speakers near Perkins,
>>>> Oklahoma:
>>>>
>>>> "I can say a few words and simple sentences and can ask for food at the
>>>> table. The Indians get a great kick out of hearing me talk.
>>>>
>>>> Sometimes I read them parts of my text, a lot of which they have never
>>>> heard, and they say it sounds very natural to them and they all understand
>>>> it.
>>>>
>>>> They are pleased when I say 8888 for them. It is supposed to be the
>>>> hardest thing to say and some of them say they can’t say it themselves. It
>>>> is simply:
>>>>
>>>> kóge glelábliⁿ gléblaⁿ húyaⁿ glelábliⁿnaⁿ gléblaⁿ glelábliⁿ aglíⁿ
>>>> glelábliⁿ."
>>>>
>>>> While I know that tongue twisters are a recognized form verbal play and
>>>> source of amusement in many languages, this is the first time I've come
>>>> across a Siouan one.
>>>>
>>>> If there are other examples of Siouan tongue twisters, I'd be
>>>> interested to hear about them.
>>>>
>>>> Be well,
>>>> Saul
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>> This email may contain identifiable personal information that is
>>>> subject to protection under state and federal law. This information is
>>>> intended for the use of the individual named above. If you are not the
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>>>
>>>
>>
>
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