Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information

Wed Oct 30 19:41:08 UTC 2013

To my knowledge (which, when it comes to Chiwere isn't great), -ta can never mean or refer to 'big, great'.  Only thą, with the clearly nasal vowel, can be 'big, great'.  I'm not saying you don't find it occasionally written and/or translated with an oral vowel, but if you do, it was presumably a pronunciation mistake by someone.  I can't recall my discussion of this with Jimm.  Maybe he still has the text and can refresh my 74 year-old memory.  It's possible we were talking about a mixture of topics where all this will make better sense, but this is my understanding at the moment.

I have some contributions to the thunder/lightning discussion too.

Quapaw terms of interest.

hw[ = headword
def[ = definition, i.e., English translation.
pos[ = part of speech.
rem[ = remarks

hw[dittóttoxi
def[thunder, one of the sounds of
pos[

hw[dittóxi
def[discharge, make a bang
pos[v
1sg[bdíttoxi
2sg[ttíttoxi

hw[kaníni, kanįnį́
def[thunder
pos[n
rem[ganiní ( OM)

hw[kanįttą́ka (OM)
def[thunder, loud rolling
pos[n

hw[kanǫžíke
def[thunder, distant
pos[n
1sg[prob. kanį+žįka
2sg[also ganožíge (OM)

hw[idé
def[do, go, used with lightning
pos[v
rem[dią́ba idé

hw[dią́ba
def[lightning, sheet
pos[n

hw[dią́ba idé
def[lightning, to sheet
pos[v
rem[to strike

hw[dikdíze [čikǰíze]
def[lightning, forked
pos[noun.  Underlying form restored by analysis of OM’s phonetic form. (RLR)

Other possible words of interest:

hw[knǫ
def[curse, revile
pos[v
1sg[aknǫ́
2sg[daknǫ́
This would be the cognate of the grǫ or grų set of words in other languages.

My additional material from Kaw (Kansa) will follow in a separate mailing.

Bob

________________________________
From: Siouan Linguistics [SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] on behalf of Campbell, Sky [sky at OMTRIBE.ORG]
Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2013 12:30 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information

I know they are different but what I’m referring to is when I see a word like “ñita”, it is hard to determine if the –ta refers to the locative or great/big if there isn’t a context available.

Sky Campbell, B. A.
Language Director
Otoe-Missouria Tribe
580-723-4466 ext. 111
sky at omtribe.org

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm G. GoodTracks
Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2013 6:32 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information

I am thinking that you are reading into some aspects as having a similarity/ relationship, when in fact, they are independent of the other.  It is kind of like the various meanings/ uses of the element “wa-.”   Somewhere in a past EM, is Bob’s discussion and comparison of “ta” (big/ large).

splash:  gijax (Hochank); gijaxe (IOM)

From: Campbell, Sky<mailto:sky at OMTRIBE.ORG>
Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2013 8:43 AM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>
Subject: Re: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information

Jimm, sometimes it is hard to tell if that suffix is from “ida” (there) or is short for “dana” (great/very/etc.).  I know that Alanson Skinner has the term “Nitanga” as “Great Waves” as a term for the ocean.  So for a term like Wakąnda, it is tough to see which one it is although to date all the sources I’ve seen suggest it is a contracted “dana” (tąnga/tąnka) although your dictionary uses it as the locative.

Rory, the idea of “hand” for “ru-“ is an interesting one.  I’ll add it to the list of possibilities ☺.  Another idea I thought of involving instrumental prefixes that may be “out there” is the idea of the possessive “gra-“ merging with “ra-“ (by mouth) which has me wondering about the “warhoop” that Maximilian mentioned with his term “gra-ah.”  This makes me think of the verb ‘ų to maybe say “gra‘ų” (doing something by means of his own mouth??  also looks sort of like “he made his own” as well) and has me wondering if this could account for the nasal “gron” that Maximilian mentioned.

Iren, does anything specific in your term “rujax” refer to sound, something loud, or anything along those lines?

And just for fun, here are a couple terms by Agent Albert Green for lightning:

peje wagaxe – fire writing (he spelled it “Pa-cha-Wah-goh-hah”)

and

Wakąnda peje wagaxe (Wah-con-dah-Pacha-wah-go-hah)

He translated that last one as “fire writing by the Great Spirit.”

Sky Campbell, B. A.
Language Director
Otoe-Missouria Tribe
580-723-4466 ext. 111
sky at omtribe.org<mailto:sky at omtribe.org>

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm G. GoodTracks
Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 7:00 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>
Subject: Re: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information

ñíta = ocean “big water”.  It was a year or so now that Bob R addressed this old root “ta” and provided an extensive comparative listing of how it is found in all the Siouan languages.  I believe I may have merged his discussion into my Dictionary.  The dictionary also contains an in depth discussion of the relationship between “wakan (snake)” and “Wakanda (God/ Thunders)”.

From: Campbell, Sky<mailto:sky at OMTRIBE.ORG>
Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 4:15 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>
Subject: Re: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information

The term “ñita” doesn’t ring a bell with me beyond something along the lines of being at water or in the direction of water.  You see it in names quite a bit (IE “Coming from the Water”).

If Kaw has the underlying “gr” as both you and Justin mention, then that would certainly lend itself to Maximilian’s “gron.”  And if that is the case, I supposed it would be conceivable that our modern “rugri” (lightning) could have originally been pronounced “gr” (“grugri” perhaps?).  At any rate, I am still curious as to if the “gri” portion refers to “returning home” or something along those lines.

I’ve attached Dorsey’s paper for those interested.  My mention of “Lu” is on page 84.  Justin, you mentioned “hawk.”  Dorsey also mentions on that same page about a sacred bag of gray hawk skin where he says, “These objects are kept by a man of the Lu gens, who is forbidden to open the bag, the gray hawk being the taboo of his gens, who are known as Gray Hawk people.”

Sky Campbell, B. A.
Language Director
Otoe-Missouria Tribe
580-723-4466 ext. 111
sky at omtribe.org<mailto:sky at omtribe.org>

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rory Larson
Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 3:49 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>
Subject: Re: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information

Omaha has iⁿgròⁿ-huttoⁿ for ‘thunder’, apparently meaning ‘the cry of an iⁿgròⁿ’.  Outside of that context, iⁿgròⁿ is the base word for a ‘cat’, though in this context I think it may refer to a thunderbird.  By itself, gròⁿ seems to have a variety of meanings in Omaha, including ‘grumbling’ or ‘cussing’.  I suppose thunder could be conceived as somebody upstairs grumbling about something.

Omaha also has u-grà’a for a ‘war-whoop’.  I suspect this is a separate term.

Bob can confirm, but I believe /l/ in Kaw represents an underlying /gr/ in the original (MVS) language.  So from the Otoe point of view, the Lu clan should probably be read as the “Gru” clan.

I doubt that waxo would be related to wahką.  But they may mean about the same thing.  In Omaha, the word for ‘sacred’ or ‘holy’ is xubè, presumably from *xo (‘holy’) + *pe (some kind of determiner).  In IOM, does ñita mean anything by itself?

Good questions.  I’ll look forward to seeing what other answers you fish up.  :)

Rory

(Oops, Justin already replied.  So I guess Lu should represent *gro(ⁿ), which presumably just means either ‘thunder’ or ‘thunderbird’ in MVS.)

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Campbell, Sky
Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 2:21 PM
To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU<mailto:SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>
Subject: Looking for "thunder" and "lightning" information

I’m looking for some feedback (and cognates if applicable) on some terms for “thunder” and “lightning.”

For the thunder term, I am trying to find information on Maximilian’s terms for thunder which are “gron-gron” and “wahkonda-gron-gron”.  I am trying to figure out what his term “gron” is.  Maximilian notes the “on” is pronounced as it is in French which would be our nasal “ą”.  So this term would be “grą” or the reduplicated version “grągrą.”  Any suggestions on what that may be?  I have two theories in mind and both come from other terms from Maximilian.  First is his term “gra-ah” (gra’a) which he has as shout or “give the warhoop.”  The other is his term “groͣn-rä” (email formatting won’t let me show the accented “á” above the “o” like the source has it) which would be “grąre” which he translates as “great.”  Those are just speculations right now.  It should also be noted that he gives lightning as “wáhkonda-gron” (same as thunder but without the reduplication).  And it may be a stretch but I’m wondering if this “grą” is somehow related to our current “k’o” for thunder.

Any thoughts?

Maximilian’s term for lightning seems to be a variant of thunder so figuring out thunder will help with lightning.  So my question about lightning isn’t about that variant but another.  Nowadays we have:

rugri/rugrį

Then I was reading Dorsey’s “The Religions of Siouan Tribes” and he notes, “The Kansa tell the following: During the first thunder-storm of the year, the Lu or Thunder-Being people put a quantity of green cedar on a fire, making a dense smoke.”  With “Lu”, he is talking about a Kaw clan.  And with “r” and “l” being interchangeable in many materials, it has me thinking of our “rugri” and has me wondering if our “rugri” perhaps says “thunder beings returned home (or here?)” (ru/lu – thunder beings + gri (return home).

Does anyone have any information on that?

And one more thing while I’m thinking about it.  In the same paper I mentioned above by Dorsey, he is a big fan of “Wakąnda” being translated as “great serpent” (waką + dana) although he does go through a few other possibilities.  Still, “great serpent” seems to be the translation he likes the best.  I can see how he came to that conclusion.  But he also notes that “In the Dakota language, wa-kan’ means mysterious, wonderful, incomprehensible;”  And in “Early Western Travels – 1748-1846, Vol. 24 (pages 223-224), Maximilian (via Thwaites) writes, “This name is composed of two words; and, therefore, is not to be written as one.  The first word, uakan, less correctly wakan,  is the expression for god, divine, supernatural; the second, tanka, not tunka, means great.”

So that got me thinking about our term waxoñita/xoñita for sacred/holy and I am curious if that “waxo-“ is related to the “waką” that Dorsey mentions and if the idea is really closer to the “great mysterious one” rather than “great serpent.”  Or do they both mean the same thing and it just depends on what sense you are using?  I can only think of one other instance off the top of my head where “xo-“ is used by itself to indicate sacred and that is Jimm Goodtracks’ translation of William Whitman’s term “mixoge” (berdache…mi- (female) + xo- (sacred) + -ge (quality of)).

This is probably a loaded question but I’m interested in any information anyone might have on this.

Sky Campbell, B. A.
Language Director
Otoe-Missouria Tribe
580-723-4466 ext. 111
sky at omtribe.org<mailto:sky at omtribe.org>

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