[Possible SPAM] Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear"

Mon Apr 21 16:50:14 UTC 2014

I found this while going through some of Dorsey’s names:

Wa-ça-́pe yiñ-́e, Tciwere notation of the Cegiha, Wasabe jiñga, Young Black bear.  See Mŭⁿtcinye.

He shows this as an Otoe-Missouria Bear Clan name and there isn’t a mention of this individual belonging to another tribe.  This list was made about 60+ years after the same name on the 1817 treaty.  Could this be the same guy?  Possible…especially since he often lists deceased individuals (no mention of that here though).  I’d find it unlikely (but not impossible) that the same individual was still alive so I’m thinking that either he was given the name by someone, there was another individual living at that time with the same name, or perhaps he even got it off of the 1817 treaty and just added it to his list.  What I find interesting is the “Tciwere notation of…” statement.  I’m trying to figure out if he is trying to indicate that this name is an Otoe-Missouria cognate of the Dhegiha term (as in it was perhaps used regularly) or if it was a one-time thing and this was simply an Otoe-ization of Wasabe Zhinga.  Him listing it as a Bear Clan name has me slightly leaning toward the former.

What I also find interesting, regardless of which of the above scenarios is correct for this term, is why were two portions of this word “shifted” to an Otoe-Missouria form (the s to a th and zhinga to –inye) and not a potential third?  Why didn’t the “b (p)” turn into a “w” as seen in other cognates?

And naturally I didn’t stumble upon this information looking for this specific name…I was looking for something else!!

[cid:image002.jpg at 01CF5D57.DB5459F0]

Sky Campbell, B. A.
Language Director
Otoe-Missouria Tribe
580-723-4466 ext. 111
sky at omtribe.org

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Sky Campbell
Sent: Friday, April 18, 2014 6:02 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: [Possible SPAM] Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear"
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Jimm,

Very true...I've also seen a handful of names referring to other tribes (Ioway, Pawnee, Pottawatomie, Omaha, etc.).  It makes me curious about if this person were from another tribe (at least in part), what the scenario was that allowed them to inherit and/or rise through the ranks to become someone important enough to sign a treaty.

Jill,

I know what you mean.  I've considered the possibility of using variations.  I know we only met briefly at Breath of Life last year so I don't know how much of my West Virginia accent/slang came out for you to hear but I do know that it does emerge from time to time (much to my wife's amusement when I say something like "I ain't eat yet" :) ).  It's been years since I've lived there but those remnants still bubble to the surface.  I think people are often flabbergasted when they find out that I work with languages LOL.

Sky

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Greer, Jill
Sent: Friday, April 18, 2014 1:18 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>
Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear"

Interesting!  Remember that as people like the American dialectologist William Labov taught us,  if there are variations in how to pronounce something within a language,  it’s rarely the case that anyone uses only one variation always,  and the other group only uses the alternate.  And the social context can subtly affect which one is chosen,  even below the conscious level of the speaker.   So, New York City speakers from a working class neighborhood might use the classic ‘r’ dropping X percent of the time,  say 65% (John Boyle can probably remember this exactly),  while middle class folks might only ‘drop their  [r]’ 30%, and upper class folks might only have it 5% of the time,  just as an example.

It always seemed to me since so many Otoe-Missouria had Ioway kin (and vice versa) that an absolute 100% consistency in using the alternate forms (like the inye vs. inge example here) would be very unlikely.  So beyond the possible differences in the persons’ hearing and transcription,  it might have been perfectly acceptable to pronounce the name both ways, at the same point in time.
  (In this part of SW Missouri, Sky,  your last name would traditionally be said more like the desert animal,  Camel ☺;  we had dear neighbors who I knew only by hearing their names spoken, and was surprised to find out later that the spelling had not one but two “silent letters”).  Then a new girl of the same surname came to  school, and she pronounced it Cam-bell,  (still the silent p), so I added that variation for her name, but that didn’t change the way I addressed the older folks at church....

Best,
Jill

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Sky Campbell
Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2014 3:00 PM
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Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear"

Found this in the next treaty (1825) while trying to figure out yet another name LOL.

Waw-zob-e-ing-ge

And once I saw it, I remembered seeing it before.  Now I have a shift from "th" to "z" in a span of 8 years and it has me questioning if "ignet" was actually supposed to represent -inye or -inge.  If the first one was in face -inye then here you have another shift to -inge.  Presumably this same individual was there to pronounce his name for whoever was writing it down.  And if so, he changed 1 (and maybe 2) part of his name.  A number of scenarios come to mind for the change (perhaps another one of the signers pronounced it for him) but it would still be nice to get this sorted out :).

Sky

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Greer, Jill
Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 4:27 PM
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Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear"

Whoops -  I meant Dhegiha there.  Sorry all!  Jill

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Greer, Jill
Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 4:22 PM
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Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear"

Good point Sky -  Of course,  there could be lots of alternative words for many things that we just don’t have examples,  so this is exciting.  Names are always fascinating.    I must be getting hunger this afternoon, because Wasabi is a Japanese restaurant in town here,  and the thought of wonderful hot horseradish came to my mind when your Otoe word was on the screen… ☺

Jill

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rory Larson
Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 4:12 PM
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Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear"

That’s a very good point, Jill, and well taken.  Yes, there is an equivalent name, at least in the Thatada clan, which is Wasabe-zhiⁿga.  If the term Sky found is a borrowing, it shows that understanding between the two groups at the time was good enough to cause Dhegiha ‘s’ to shift forward to Otoe ‘th’, and for the Dhegiha ‘small’ term (zhiⁿga) to be replaced by Otoe iñe, as Sky has just noted.  But I think either of those are quite possible and likely, so we might want more evidence from Otoe before we conclude that this ‘bear’ term was generally used in Otoe.

Best,
Rory

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Greer, Jill
Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 3:52 PM
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Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear"

Sky and Rory,
Great posts -  one thing to consider also is that it’s actually not an Otoe word per se.  It’s possible for entire names to have been borrowed across tribes (or bestowed,  think of the intertribal peace-making child adoption tradition of the Pipe Dance (Calumet in some soures),  with the Beloved Child (it could be a girl or a boy) undergoing an elaborate ceremony.   People might have multiple names (family kin name, clan name, later a name from an accomplishment,  plus nicknames [‘uncle names’].   Is there a similar name in Dhegiha groups?

Best,
Jill

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rory Larson
Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 3:43 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>
Subject: Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear"

Sky,

The wasabe term is not just Ponca; it’s Omaha, Kaw and (as wasape) Osage as well.  I assume it’s common Dhegiha.  It refers to the black bear, as opposed to the mąnto-equivalent term for ‘grizzly bear’.  I’m sure you’re entirely right that the ‘Wathapay’ part of that name is an Otoe equivalent of Dhegiha *wasape.  It looks like the ‘ignet’ must have been written by a Frenchman; it kind of threw me a little at first.  :)

Anyway, if the *wasape term was not known from Otoe before, that’s a great catch!  So it looks like you have three terms for ‘bear’??

Best,
Rory

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Sky Campbell
Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 1:50 PM
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Subject: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear"

I've had a name from an old Otoe treaty (1817) that has always puzzled me.  The name is:

Wathapayignet - the Small Bear

There is no mųnje (bear/black bear) or mąnto (grizzly bear) terms to be found in there.  The "small" part is easy enough to pull out of there (yignet = -inye).  Then the thought struck me about the Ponca term for bear (wasabe) and how the Ponca "s" can sometimes be the Otoe "th" in cognate terms.  This gives me "wathabe" as the term for bear.  Now before I run with this, does anyone have anything to back this up?  It certainly makes sense and the pieces fit.  But I have never seen "wathabe" anywhere as an Otoe word for bear.  But if I am right, this would give me:

Wathabeinye - Small Bear

If I am correct, then I'm thinking that this is an extremely old term.

Anyone else come across this before?

Sky
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