[Possible SPAM] Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear"

Mon Apr 21 17:55:00 UTC 2014

Sky,

>  Why didn’t the “b (p)” turn into a “w” as seen in other cognates?

I don't know much at all about OM, but in Ks, it's always wise to keep in
mind that the language was really never static until it ceased to be
spoken; individual and group variations are always present in living
languages, as Bill Labov would tell you, and these variations ultimately
drive language change over time. As such, the phonological correspondences
that seem to be reliably stable later on--a good example of this is plain
/l/ in Ks or Os for what is OP /gð/ or Qu /kd~kn/--don't always appear to
bear out so reliably in historical documents. This is especially true of
traditional names, which are often quite conservative. So, there are
numerous instances of Dorsey listing Ks names with, say, 'hawk' written as
gledaN, when none of the 20th century speakers would have had that /gl/
onset in everyday speech. Unfortunately, Dorsey's or other people's
descriptive snapshots don't really provide enough information to know the
full story: It may have been that /gl/ may still have been in the process
of transitioning to /l/ at the time of the documentation, leaving some
potential informants with /gl/ and others with /l/. Or, it may be that /gl/
had completely disappeared in everyday speech, but was only retained in
names. Or, it may have been something else entirely.

Bear in mind also that, at least in Dhegiha, /p~b~w~m/ and even /β/ vary
greatly before front vowels. This yields cases of
bekkaNj^e~wekkaNj^e~mekkaNj^e (the last of which is really odd, since we
would never expect /m/ before an oral vowel in Ks) from contemporary
speakers for one of the most common but not easily translatable female
names in Ks. Dorsey doesn't have a really consistent way of spelling this
phenomenon, and it may be because his informants didn't necessarily agree.
If OM is at all similar in its lack of consistency in this environment,
it's not surprising to have a rather unexpected spelling here, especially
if only one guy had the name.

All the best,
-Justin

On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 11:50 AM, Campbell, Sky <sky at omtribe.org> wrote:

> I found this while going through some of Dorsey’s names:
>
>
>
> Wa-ça-́pe yiñ-́e, Tciwere notation of the Cegiha, Wasabe jiñga, Young
> Black bear.  See Mŭⁿtcinye.
>
>
>
> He shows this as an Otoe-Missouria Bear Clan name and there isn’t a
> mention of this individual belonging to another tribe.  This list was made
> about 60+ years after the same name on the 1817 treaty.  Could this be the
> same guy?  Possible…especially since he often lists deceased individuals
> (no mention of that here though).  I’d find it unlikely (but not
> impossible) that the same individual was still alive so I’m thinking that
> either he was given the name by someone, there was another individual
> living at that time with the same name, or perhaps he even got it off of
> the 1817 treaty and just added it to his list.  What I find interesting is
> the “Tciwere notation of…” statement.  I’m trying to figure out if he is
> trying to indicate that this name is an Otoe-Missouria cognate of the
> Dhegiha term (as in it was perhaps used regularly) or if it was a one-time
> thing and this was simply an Otoe-ization of Wasabe Zhinga.  Him listing it
> as a Bear Clan name has me slightly leaning toward the former.
>
>
>
> What I also find interesting, regardless of which of the above scenarios
> is correct for this term, is why were two portions of this word “shifted”
> to an Otoe-Missouria form (the s to a th and zhinga to –inye) and not a
> potential third?  Why didn’t the “b (p)” turn into a “w” as seen in other
> cognates?
>
>
>
> And naturally I didn’t stumble upon this information looking for this
> specific name…I was looking for something else!!
>
>
>
>
>
> [image: Wathabeinye.jpg]
>
>
>
> *Sky Campbell, B. A.*
>
> Language Director
>
> Otoe-Missouria Tribe
>
> 580-723-4466 ext. 111
>
> sky at omtribe.org
>
>
>
> *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf Of
> *Sky Campbell
> *Sent:* Friday, April 18, 2014 6:02 PM
> *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
> *Subject:* [Possible SPAM] Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear"
> *Importance:* Low
>
>
>
> Jimm,
>
>
>
> Very true...I've also seen a handful of names referring to other tribes
> (Ioway, Pawnee, Pottawatomie, Omaha, etc.).  It makes me curious about if
> this person were from another tribe (at least in part), what the scenario
> was that allowed them to inherit and/or rise through the ranks to become
> someone important enough to sign a treaty.
>
>
>
> Jill,
>
>
>
> I know what you mean.  I've considered the possibility of using
> variations.  I know we only met briefly at Breath of Life last year so I
> don't know how much of my West Virginia accent/slang came out for you to
> hear but I do know that it does emerge from time to time (much to my wife's
> amusement when I say something like "I ain't eat yet" :) ).  It's been
> years since I've lived there but those remnants still bubble to the
> surface.  I think people are often flabbergasted when they find out that I
> work with languages LOL.
>
>
>
> Sky
>
>
>
> *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>]
> *On Behalf Of *Greer, Jill
> *Sent:* Friday, April 18, 2014 1:18 PM
> *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
> *Subject:* Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear"
>
>
>
> Interesting!  Remember that as people like the American dialectologist
> William Labov taught us,  if there are variations in how to pronounce
> something within a language,  it’s rarely the case that anyone uses only
> one variation always,  and the other group only uses the alternate.  And
> the social context can subtly affect which one is chosen,  even below the
> conscious level of the speaker.   So, New York City speakers from a working
> class neighborhood might use the classic ‘r’ dropping X percent of the
> time,  say 65% (John Boyle can probably remember this exactly),  while
> middle class folks might only ‘drop their  [r]’ 30%, and upper class folks
> might only have it 5% of the time,  just as an example.
>
>
>
> It always seemed to me since so many Otoe-Missouria had Ioway kin (and
> vice versa) that an absolute 100% consistency in using the alternate forms
> (like the inye vs. inge example here) would be very unlikely.  So beyond
> the possible differences in the persons’ hearing and transcription,  it
> might have been perfectly acceptable to pronounce the name both ways, at
> the same point in time.
>
>   (In this part of SW Missouri, Sky,  your last name would traditionally
> be said more like the desert animal,  Camel J;  we had dear neighbors who
> I knew only by hearing their names spoken, and was surprised to find out
> later that the spelling had not one but two “silent letters”).  Then a new
> girl of the same surname came to  school, and she pronounced it Cam-bell,
> (still the silent p), so I added that variation for her name, but that
> didn’t change the way I addressed the older folks at church....
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> Jill
>
>
>
> *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>]
> *On Behalf Of *Sky Campbell
> *Sent:* Thursday, April 17, 2014 3:00 PM
> *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
> *Subject:* Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear"
>
>
>
> Found this in the next treaty (1825) while trying to figure out yet
> another name LOL.
>
>
>
> Waw-zob-e-ing-ge
>
>
>
> And once I saw it, I remembered seeing it before.  Now I have a shift from
> "th" to "z" in a span of 8 years and it has me questioning if "ignet" was
> actually supposed to represent -inye or -inge.  If the first one was in
> face -inye then here you have another shift to -inge.  Presumably this same
> individual was there to pronounce his name for whoever was writing it
> down.  And if so, he changed 1 (and maybe 2) part of his name.  A number of
> scenarios come to mind for the change (perhaps another one of the signers
> pronounced it for him) but it would still be nice to get this sorted out :).
>
>
>
> Sky
>
>
>
> *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>]
> *On Behalf Of *Greer, Jill
> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 16, 2014 4:27 PM
> *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
> *Subject:* Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear"
>
>
>
> Whoops -  I meant Dhegiha there.  Sorry all!  Jill
>
>
>
> *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>]
> *On Behalf Of *Greer, Jill
> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 16, 2014 4:22 PM
> *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
> *Subject:* Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear"
>
>
>
> Good point Sky -  Of course,  there could be lots of alternative words for
> many things that we just don’t have examples,  so this is exciting.  Names
> are always fascinating.    I must be getting hunger this afternoon, because
> Wasabi is a Japanese restaurant in town here,  and the thought of wonderful
> hot horseradish came to my mind when your Otoe word was on the screen… J
>
>
>
> Jill
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>]
> *On Behalf Of *Rory Larson
> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 16, 2014 4:12 PM
> *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
> *Subject:* Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear"
>
>
>
> That’s a very good point, Jill, and well taken.  Yes, there is an
> equivalent name, at least in the Thatada clan, which is Wasabe-zhiⁿga.  If
> the term Sky found is a borrowing, it shows that understanding between the
> two groups at the time was good enough to cause Dhegiha ‘s’ to shift
> forward to Otoe ‘th’, and for the Dhegiha ‘small’ term (zhiⁿga) to be
> replaced by Otoe iñe, as Sky has just noted.  But I think either of those
> are quite possible and likely, so we might want more evidence from Otoe
> before we conclude that this ‘bear’ term was generally used in Otoe.
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> Rory
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>]
> *On Behalf Of *Greer, Jill
> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 16, 2014 3:52 PM
> *To:* SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU
> *Subject:* Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear"
>
>
>
> Sky and Rory,
>
> Great posts -  one thing to consider also is that it’s actually not an
> Otoe word per se.  It’s possible for entire names to have been borrowed
> across tribes (or bestowed,  think of the intertribal peace-making child
> adoption tradition of the Pipe Dance (Calumet in some soures),  with the
> Beloved Child (it could be a girl or a boy) undergoing an elaborate
> ceremony.   People might have multiple names (family kin name, clan name,
> later a name from an accomplishment,  plus nicknames [‘uncle names’].   Is
> there a similar name in Dhegiha groups?
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> Jill
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>]
> *On Behalf Of *Rory Larson
> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 16, 2014 3:43 PM
> *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
> *Subject:* Re: Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear"
>
>
>
> Sky,
>
>
>
> The *wasabe* term is not just Ponca; it’s Omaha, Kaw and (as *wasape*)
> Osage as well.  I assume it’s common Dhegiha.  It refers to the black bear,
> as opposed to the *mąnto*-equivalent term for ‘grizzly bear’.  I’m sure
> you’re entirely right that the ‘Wathapay’ part of that name is an Otoe
> equivalent of Dhegiha **wasape*.  It looks like the ‘ignet’ must have
> been written by a Frenchman; it kind of threw me a little at first.  :)
>
>
>
> Anyway, if the **wasape* term was not known from Otoe before, that’s a
> great catch!  So it looks like you have three terms for ‘bear’??
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> Rory
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>]
> *On Behalf Of *Sky Campbell
> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 16, 2014 1:50 PM
> *To:* SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU
> *Subject:* Old Otoe-Missouria term for "bear"
>
>
>
> I've had a name from an old Otoe treaty (1817) that has always puzzled
> me.  The name is:
>
>
>
> Wathapayignet - the Small Bear
>
>
>
> There is no *mųnje* (bear/black bear) or *mąnto* (grizzly bear) terms to
> be found in there.  The "small" part is easy enough to pull out of there
> (yignet = -inye).  Then the thought struck me about the Ponca term for bear
> (wasabe) and how the Ponca "s" can sometimes be the Otoe "th" in cognate
> terms.  This gives me "wathabe" as the term for bear.  Now before I run
> with this, does anyone have anything to back this up?  It certainly makes
> sense and the pieces fit.  But I have never seen "wathabe" anywhere as an
> Otoe word for bear.  But if I am right, this would give me:
>
>
>
> Wathabeinye - Small Bear
>
>
>
> If I am correct, then I'm thinking that this is an *extremely* old term.
>
>
>
> Anyone else come across this before?
>
>
>
> Sky
>
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