[Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga

Wed Jul 23 19:19:51 UTC 2014

Those names are listed with "manyi" in other sources.  For example, Catlin has "Neu-mon-ya" and "Wash-ka-mon-ya" where that "manyi" can (usually) refer to "walk" or "always".  Ioway treaties has spellings like "Washcommanee" and "Ne-o-mon-ni".  What I'm thinking is that perhaps the "monga" came from looking a poor copies of old documents and that those "g" characters are most likely "y" characters.  These characters are handwritten and it only takes one little movement to "close up" a "y" at the top and make it look like a "g".

I've seen "Niyu Manyi" translated as walking rain, moving rain, and always raining.  I tend to lean towards that last one.

The name "Washka Manyi" as been translated as great walker, great marcher, and fast dancer so that one is a little tougher.  I can see how "washka" could maybe be a mash-up of "washi" (dance) and "kątha" (fast).  But when I decided to hit up a Ponca friend about his name "Washka" (that's his legal name, not just his "Indian name"), I found out the full form of his name is "Washka Mathi" which he translated as "Stands Strong."  I know that "mathi" in Ponca/Omaha is a cognate to the Otoe-Ioway "manyi" and also that Otoes and Ioways had the form "mathi" a long time ago.  So that got me to thinking that perhaps this Ioway individual might have roughly the same name as my Ponca friend (cognate forms notwithstanding).  The only trouble with that theory is that I've never seen a term "washka" to mean "strong" like it does in Ponca.  Dorsey shows the Jiwere cognate to "washka" as "brixe" (which is the term I am familiar with).  So is this one of those instances where Otoe-Ioway had more in common with Dhegiha almost 200 years ago and "washka" was used to mean "strong" (or a similiar idea) but no longer does?  It would seem likely since some of those translations for that name have the word "great" in them along with walker or marcher.  Strong walker/strong marcher perhaps?  But without more information, this is just yet another thing for me to keep in the back of my mind until I find that bit of information that helps clear it up.  May that day come soon!

Sky Campbell
Language Director
Otoe-Missouria Tribe
(580) 723-4466, ext. 111
sky at omtribe.org

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Rory Larson
Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2014 1:15 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga

Sky, do we know what “monga” means in the other names, Washkamonga and Neumonga?

Best,
Rory

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Campbell, Sky
Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2014 9:28 AM
To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU<mailto:SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU>
Subject: Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga

Greg was gracious enough to let me see the copies he was drawing from and sure enough, it looks like "monga" in the name.  But what I found interesting in that document was other familiar names...Washkamonga and Neumonga which we've seen elsewhere with the "monga" portion spelled with an "ny" instead of an "ng".  I also looked at the 1842 Ioway census and found "Caromonga" but instead it was spelled "Caramonya".  I did a quick Google search for "Caramonya" and got a couple hits on some books that had excerpts from Hamilton's journal.  He describes "Caramonya" as "an old Indian who often visits us."  Unfortunately he doesn't translate the name.  My first reaction was to think that perhaps Hamilton might be using his own orthography that he used in his books but the rest of the spelling doesn't bear that out.  I'd love to see more of Hamilton's journal to see if there are any clues in there.  Anyone know where I could get a hold of such a thing?

So it looks like that ending may actually be "manyi" (but perhaps not for the "ng/ny swap" that I suggested but maybe just a handwriting issue).  And it looks like both versions were written by the same person (there is the same flourish on the capital "C" in both versions of the name).

Council meeting image:
[cid:image001.jpg at 01CFA67E.4F680160]

Ioway census image:
[cid:image002.jpg at 01CFA67E.4F680160]

So if it is "Cara-" instead of "Caro-", then that can open up more possibilities perhaps.  But I'm still only coming up with ketą, kera and giro as my top suggestions for now.

Sky Campbell
Language Director
Otoe-Missouria Tribe
(580) 723-4466, ext. 111
sky at omtribe.org<mailto:sky at omtribe.org>

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jimm G. GoodTracks
Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2014 9:35 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>
Subject: [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga
Importance: Low

Well, going on what Jill says, the closet thing I can find is:  šedánaŋe; šedánaŋa  adv/prn.  that distant curvilinear object yonder; that distant land in sight.  However, I'm not comfortable that it is a good fit for "Carominga."  I don't know if the original notation was from a French or English document, and as such, cannot know to consider the phonetic value of the "C."

But going with the possibility of it being "Ké" as in "Kétan" (turtle), we have:
kétan; ketúnha; keton^a (SKN); qetan (DOR)  n.  turtle.   kétan xúha  n.  turtle shell.   Kétan wáñi pí añáñe ke,  It is said that turtle meat is good.
     kégrédheiñe; kégrédheiŋe      spotted (or) sand turtle
     kehtonha (SKN)                       snapping turtle; snapper
     kémarax^ín; kemárax^in (LWR)            snapping turtle
     ké márax^in “wrinkled turtle” mud turtle
     ketánna (LWR)                         snapping turtle; snapper

        But you see, the best contender is for:
            kéra  adj.  clear (sky).   Clear Day; Clear Sky Appears  (a personal Buffalo Clan name)  n.  Kéra Tán^in; K^éra Tán^in.  **SEE: githóje; clear.

Also, thinking about the breakup of syllables as Justin suggest, there could be a connect with:
            rominjí  n.  island.   Rominjí^iŋe(mi); Romínchiŋe; Irómiŋhšji; Jérominje; Romijiiŋemi (DOR); rúmitsí (MAX)  (a personal Buffalo Clan and Beaver Clan name)  Little Island.   Romihingu ~ Romihiŋu (SKN); Romijiiŋemi (DOR)  (a personal Pigeon Clan name)  Island.
 And there was maybe the "g" is really a "j" which gives only one unlikely possibility:
 mánje (?)(LWR); masjé  adj/v.i.  hot, warm (weather).
With the above, one could squeeze out a "Turtle Island," but, this possibility is not convincing to me.

SO THEN, in appreciation to everyone's input, I have arrived full circle to my original conjecture that the name that most likely fits the documented transcription is:

KéraMánge (Clearing Day All About~ Prevailing).  In this case, the "mánge" (sitting) is used in the sense of a positional verb, saying that the clearing of the sky, was extensive over a wide area such might be view on the breathe of the open plains.  Further, such a rendering would be consistant to similar clan names.

I suggest one possibilty for Grey in working with his narrative is to include with the composed name, the original transcription, such as, "KéraMánge (Clearing Day All About) [Carminga (Document Source citations)].   Unless, new evidence appears, or further information, this is the best that can be made of that name.

Hánhe Pi, Good Night, Buenas Noches!

From: Greer, Jill<mailto:Greer-J at MSSU.EDU>
Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2014 6:22 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>
Subject: Re: Carominga

Justin and Sky -
You guys with your programming talents-  impressive!

Just one question for Jimm and Greg -  if the original person who transcribed the name was French (or a mixed blood literate in French-  as was common around St. Joseph),  the first syllabie "Ca" could even be /Sa/  or /se/  rather than Key, n'est pas?   I hate to muddy the waters, but all it takes is one person to miss the cedilla and we've switched the sound totally.  These old names are so slippery, but fascinating!

Best,
Jill

On Jul 18, 2014, at 8:17 PM, "Mcbride, Justin" <jtmcbri at OSTATEMAIL.OKSTATE.EDU<mailto:jtmcbri at OSTATEMAIL.OKSTATE.EDU>>
 wrote:

When you showed me that program last year, Sky, I remember thinking, "Now, THIS is awesome!" As a guy who, for years, was asked questions like, "What's my Granddad's name mean?" on a weekly basis, only to be handed a string of indecipherable 'ah's, 'eh's, and hyphens with a few consonants mixed in for good measure, I would have relished the opportunity to see a list the possible permutations presented at once. Now, if you could just build in some phonotactic constraint logic and SQL interaction with some sort of lexical database to provide suggestions--you know, the easy stuff--you'd have the proverbial better mousetrap!  :)  Ah, it's fun to dream!

By the way, the name Kke Leze was the name of one of the last living male L1 Ks speakers. -jtm

On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 7:34 PM, Sky Campbell <sky at legendreaders.com<mailto:sky at legendreaders.com>> wrote:
Justin,

I thought of that too (and even thought of turtle LOL...ke for ketą) but nothing came to mind for the rest.  We have a precedent for this which is a name listed as "Ke Greðe" (Prairie Turtle/Spotted Turtle).  I seem to remember one or two more but can't think of them off the top of my head.

And thanks for pointing out the "g" possibly being the "j" sound.  That is usually one of the first things I consider but it totally slipped my mind.  Man, I really, REALLY need to finish my "character/morpheme swap" program for situations like this.

Sky

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>] On Behalf Of Mcbride, Justin
Sent: Friday, July 18, 2014 5:46 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>
Subject: Re: Carominga

Howdy, Jimm,

I wonder about the division of syllables into Caro and Monga. Is it possible that it could be Ca Romonga? I ask becasue, if it were a Kaw name, I'd think it might have something to do with kke, 'turtle,' which I'm pretty sure I've seen spelled as Ca in names before. I would also look at the r as representing either Ks y or l, and -ga part at the end (if it's not been switched, as Sky suggests, which I think is probable) as possibly representing like the Ks syllable j^e, which seems to happen fairly frequently in the names I've looked at. In short, I would expect something like kke yaNmaNj^e, which doesn't ring any bells at all in Ks. Now, I don't know much at all about IOM, lexically or phonologically--maybe this makes even less sense in IOM--but thought I just might throw that out there as food for thought.

All the best,
-Justin

On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 3:54 PM, Sky Campbell <sky at legendreaders.com<mailto:sky at legendreaders.com>> wrote:
The "caro" portion has me thinking of a few possibilities:

kera (as you pointed out)
giro (happy)

The "monga" has me thinking of:

mange (lying down)
mange (chest)
womanke (easy) <-- perhaps unlikely
mąnka (medicine) <-- seems the most unlikely but I thought I'd throw it in there

Last is a "theory" that I have that perhaps somehow, some way, "monga" might be a form of "manyi/manye".  Considering how many examples of "ng" and "ny" being swapped out (sunge/sunye, -inge/-inye, etc.), I wonder if perhaps it might be a version of "manyi".  Especially since that word is used in so many names already and your friend noted that it appears in other names as well.  This is just speculation, of course.  Speaking of which, if they could provide examples of other names that use "monga", it might help us figure it out.

Sky

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>] On Behalf Of Jimm G. GoodTracks
Sent: Friday, July 18, 2014 9:25 AM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>
Subject: Fw: Carominga

Does anyone have some thoughts to decipher the name: "Caromonga."  The last part appears to be "mange" (be in sitting position).  The first could be "kera" (cleared sky).

From: Greg Olson<mailto:caxelolson at gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, July 11, 2014 4:48 PM
To: Jimm GoodTracks<mailto:jgoodtracks at gmail.com>
Subject: Carominga

Jimm, while proofing my manuscript, I came across an Ioway name I had overlooked. Caromonga. He is mentioned insome council   meetings during the 1840s. I notice the end of the name- monga -appears in other names too.

Greg
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