[Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga
Lori Stanley
stanleyl at LUTHER.EDU
Thu Jul 24 20:11:37 UTC 2014
Sky,
Here is the reference for the published version of Hamilton's journal:
Hamilton, William
1885 Autobiography of Reverend William Hamilton. *Transactions and
Reports of the Nebraska State Historical Society* 1:60-75.
I'm sure I have a copy and could send you a PDF, but I'm out of town for a
few days. Let me know if you get hold of it. If not, I'll send it when I
get back.
Lori
On Wed, Jul 23, 2014 at 2:19 PM, Campbell, Sky <sky at omtribe.org> wrote:
> Those names are listed with "manyi" in other sources. For example, Catlin
> has "Neu-mon-ya" and "Wash-ka-mon-ya" where that "manyi" can (usually)
> refer to "walk" or "always". Ioway treaties has spellings like
> "Washcommanee" and "Ne-o-mon-ni". What I'm thinking is that perhaps the
> "monga" came from looking a poor copies of old documents and that those "g"
> characters are most likely "y" characters. These characters are
> handwritten and it only takes one little movement to "close up" a "y" at
> the top and make it look like a "g".
>
>
>
> I've seen "Niyu Manyi" translated as walking rain, moving rain, and always
> raining. I tend to lean towards that last one.
>
>
>
> The name "Washka Manyi" as been translated as great walker, great marcher,
> and fast dancer so that one is a little tougher. I can see how "washka"
> could maybe be a mash-up of "washi" (dance) and "kątha" (fast). But when I
> decided to hit up a Ponca friend about his name "Washka" (that's his legal
> name, not just his "Indian name"), I found out the full form of his name is
> "Washka Mathi" which he translated as "Stands Strong." I know that "mathi"
> in Ponca/Omaha is a cognate to the Otoe-Ioway "manyi" and also that Otoes
> and Ioways had the form "mathi" a long time ago. So that got me to
> thinking that perhaps this Ioway individual might have roughly the same
> name as my Ponca friend (cognate forms notwithstanding). The only trouble
> with that theory is that I've never seen a term "washka" to mean "strong"
> like it does in Ponca. Dorsey shows the Jiwere cognate to "washka" as
> "brixe" (which is the term I am familiar with). So is this one of those
> instances where Otoe-Ioway had more in common with Dhegiha almost 200 years
> ago and "washka" was used to mean "strong" (or a similiar idea) but no
> longer does? It would seem likely since some of those translations for
> that name have the word "great" in them along with walker or marcher.
> Strong walker/strong marcher perhaps? But without more information, this
> is just yet another thing for me to keep in the back of my mind until I
> find that bit of information that helps clear it up. May that day come
> soon!
>
>
>
> *Sky Campbell*
>
> Language Director
>
> Otoe-Missouria Tribe
>
> (580) 723-4466, ext. 111
>
> sky at omtribe.org
>
>
>
> *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf Of
> *Rory Larson
> *Sent:* Wednesday, July 23, 2014 1:15 PM
> *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
> *Subject:* Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga
>
>
>
> Sky, do we know what “monga” means in the other names, Washkamonga and
> Neumonga?
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> Rory
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
> <SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>] *On Behalf Of *Campbell, Sky
> *Sent:* Wednesday, July 23, 2014 9:28 AM
> *To:* SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU
> *Subject:* Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga
>
>
>
> Greg was gracious enough to let me see the copies he was drawing from and
> sure enough, it looks like "monga" in the name. But what I found
> interesting in that document was other familiar names...Washkamonga and
> Neumonga which we've seen elsewhere with the "monga" portion spelled with
> an "ny" instead of an "ng". I also looked at the 1842 Ioway census and
> found "Caromonga" but instead it was spelled "Caramonya". I did a quick
> Google search for "Caramonya" and got a couple hits on some books that had
> excerpts from Hamilton's journal. He describes "Caramonya" as "an old
> Indian who often visits us." Unfortunately he doesn't translate the name.
> My first reaction was to think that perhaps Hamilton might be using his own
> orthography that he used in his books but the rest of the spelling doesn't
> bear that out. I'd love to see more of Hamilton's journal to see if there
> are any clues in there. Anyone know where I could get a hold of such a
> thing?
>
>
>
> So it looks like that ending may actually be "manyi" (but perhaps not for
> the "ng/ny swap" that I suggested but maybe just a handwriting issue). And
> it looks like both versions were written by the same person (there is the
> same flourish on the capital "C" in both versions of the name).
>
>
>
> Council meeting image:
>
> [image: Caromonga.jpg]
>
>
>
> Ioway census image:
>
> [image: Caramonya.jpg]
>
>
>
> So if it is "Cara-" instead of "Caro-", then that can open up more
> possibilities perhaps. But I'm still only coming up with ketą, kera and
> giro as my top suggestions for now.
>
>
>
> *Sky Campbell*
>
> Language Director
>
> Otoe-Missouria Tribe
>
> (580) 723-4466, ext. 111
>
> sky at omtribe.org
>
>
>
> *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
> <SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>] *On Behalf Of *Jimm G. GoodTracks
> *Sent:* Tuesday, July 22, 2014 9:35 PM
> *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
> *Subject:* [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga
> *Importance:* Low
>
>
>
> Well, going on what Jill says, the closet thing I can find is: *šedánaŋe;
> šedánaŋa** adv/prn. *that distant curvilinear object yonder; that
> distant land in sight. However, I'm not comfortable that it is a good
> fit for "Carominga." I don't know if the original notation was from a
> French or English document, and as such, cannot know to consider the
> phonetic value of the "C."
>
>
>
> But going with the possibility of it being "Ké" as in "Kétan" (turtle), we
> have:
>
> *kétan; ketúnha;* keton^a (SKN); qetan (DOR)* n. *turtle. *kétan xúha**
> n. *turtle shell. *Kétan* wáñi pí añáñe ke, It is said that *turtle*
> meat is good.
>
> *kégrédheiñe; kégrédheiŋe* spotted (or) sand turtle
>
> *kehtonha* (SKN) snapping turtle; snapper
>
> *kémarax^ín; kemárax^in* (LWR) snapping turtle
>
> *ké márax^in* “wrinkled turtle” mud turtle
>
> *ketánna* (LWR) snapping turtle; snapper
>
>
>
> But you see, the best contender is for:
>
> * kéra** adj. *clear (*sky*). *Clear Day;* *Clear Sky
> Appears* (*a personal Buffalo Clan name*)* n. *Kéra Tán^in; K^éra Tán^i
> n. ***SEE*: *githóje; clear.*
>
>
>
> Also, thinking about the breakup of syllables as Justin suggest, there
> could be a connect with:
>
> *rominjí** n. *island. *Rominjí^iŋe(mi); Romínchiŋe;
> Irómiŋhšji; Jérominje;* Romijiiŋemi (DOR); rúmitsí (MAX) (*a personal
> Buffalo Clan and Beaver Clan name*) Little Island. *Romihingu ~
> Romihiŋu* (SKN)*;* Romijiiŋemi (DOR) (*a personal Pigeon Clan name*)
> Island.
>
> And there was maybe the "g" is really a "j" which gives only one unlikely
> possibility:
>
> *mánje* (?)(LWR)*; masjé** adj/v.i. *hot, warm (*weather*).
>
> With the above, one could squeeze out a "Turtle Island," but, this
> possibility is not convincing to me.
>
>
>
> *SO THEN, *in appreciation to everyone's input, I have arrived full
> circle to my original conjecture that the name that most likely fits the
> documented transcription is:
>
>
>
> *KéraMánge* (Clearing Day All About~ Prevailing). In this case, the
> "mánge" (sitting) is used in the sense of a positional verb, saying that
> the clearing of the sky, was extensive over a wide area such might be view
> on the breathe of the open plains. Further, such a rendering would be
> consistant to similar clan names.
>
>
>
> I suggest one possibilty for Grey in working with his narrative is to
> include with the composed name, the original transcription, such as, "
> *KéraMánge* (Clearing Day All About) [Carminga (Document Source
> citations)]. Unless, new evidence appears, or further information, this
> is the best that can be made of that name.
>
>
>
> Hánhe Pi, Good Night, Buenas Noches!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Greer, Jill <Greer-J at MSSU.EDU>
>
> *Sent:* Saturday, July 19, 2014 6:22 PM
>
> *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
>
> *Subject:* Re: Carominga
>
>
>
> Justin and Sky -
>
> You guys with your programming talents- impressive!
>
>
>
> Just one question for Jimm and Greg - if the original person who
> transcribed the name was French (or a mixed blood literate in French- as
> was common around St. Joseph), the first syllabie "Ca" could even be /Sa/
> or /se/ rather than Key, n'est pas? I hate to muddy the waters, but all
> it takes is one person to miss the cedilla and we've switched the sound
> totally. These old names are so slippery, but fascinating!
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> Jill
>
>
>
>
>
> On Jul 18, 2014, at 8:17 PM, "Mcbride, Justin" <
> jtmcbri at OSTATEMAIL.OKSTATE.EDU>
>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> When you showed me that program last year, Sky, I remember thinking, "Now,
> THIS is awesome!" As a guy who, for years, was asked questions like,
> "What's my Granddad's name mean?" on a weekly basis, only to be handed a
> string of indecipherable 'ah's, 'eh's, and hyphens with a few consonants
> mixed in for good measure, I would have relished the opportunity to see a
> list the possible permutations presented at once. Now, if you could just
> build in some phonotactic constraint logic and SQL interaction with some
> sort of lexical database to provide suggestions--you know, the easy
> stuff--you'd have the proverbial better mousetrap! :) Ah, it's fun to
> dream!
>
>
>
> By the way, the name Kke Leze was the name of one of the last living male
> L1 Ks speakers. -jtm
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 7:34 PM, Sky Campbell <sky at legendreaders.com>
> wrote:
>
> Justin,
>
>
>
> I thought of that too (and even thought of turtle LOL...ke for ketą) but
> nothing came to mind for the rest. We have a precedent for this which is a
> name listed as "Ke Greðe" (Prairie Turtle/Spotted Turtle). I seem to
> remember one or two more but can't think of them off the top of my head.
>
>
>
> And thanks for pointing out the "g" possibly being the "j" sound. That is
> usually one of the first things I consider but it totally slipped my mind.
> Man, I really, REALLY need to finish my "character/morpheme swap" program
> for situations like this.
>
>
>
> Sky
>
>
>
> *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf Of
> *Mcbride, Justin
> *Sent:* Friday, July 18, 2014 5:46 PM
> *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
> *Subject:* Re: Carominga
>
>
>
> Howdy, Jimm,
>
>
>
> I wonder about the division of syllables into Caro and Monga. Is it
> possible that it could be Ca Romonga? I ask becasue, if it were a Kaw name,
> I'd think it might have something to do with kke, 'turtle,' which I'm
> pretty sure I've seen spelled as Ca in names before. I would also look at
> the r as representing either Ks y or l, and -ga part at the end (if it's
> not been switched, as Sky suggests, which I think is probable) as possibly
> representing like the Ks syllable j^e, which seems to happen fairly
> frequently in the names I've looked at. In short, I would expect something
> like kke yaNmaNj^e, which doesn't ring any bells at all in Ks. Now, I don't
> know much at all about IOM, lexically or phonologically--maybe this makes
> even less sense in IOM--but thought I just might throw that out there as
> food for thought.
>
>
>
> All the best,
>
> -Justin
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 3:54 PM, Sky Campbell <sky at legendreaders.com>
> wrote:
>
> The "caro" portion has me thinking of a few possibilities:
>
>
>
> kera (as you pointed out)
>
> giro (happy)
>
>
>
> The "monga" has me thinking of:
>
>
>
> mange (lying down)
>
> mange (chest)
>
> womanke (easy) <-- perhaps unlikely
>
> mąnka (medicine) <-- seems the most unlikely but I thought I'd throw it in
> there
>
>
>
> Last is a "theory" that I have that perhaps somehow, some way, "monga"
> might be a form of "manyi/manye". Considering how many examples of "ng"
> and "ny" being swapped out (sunge/sunye, -inge/-inye, etc.), I wonder if
> perhaps it might be a version of "manyi". Especially since that word is
> used in so many names already and your friend noted that it appears in
> other names as well. This is just speculation, of course. Speaking of
> which, if they could provide examples of other names that use "monga", it
> might help us figure it out.
>
>
>
> Sky
>
>
>
> *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf Of
> *Jimm G. GoodTracks
> *Sent:* Friday, July 18, 2014 9:25 AM
> *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
> *Subject:* Fw: Carominga
>
>
>
> Does anyone have some thoughts to decipher the name: "Caromonga." The
> last part appears to be "mange" (be in sitting position). The first could
> be "kera" (cleared sky).
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Greg Olson <caxelolson at gmail.com>
>
> *Sent:* Friday, July 11, 2014 4:48 PM
>
> *To:* Jimm GoodTracks <jgoodtracks at gmail.com>
>
> *Subject:* Carominga
>
>
>
> Jimm, while proofing my manuscript, I came across an Ioway name I had
> overlooked. Caromonga. He is mentioned insome council meetings during the
> 1840s. I notice the end of the name- monga -appears in other names too.
>
>
>
> Greg
>
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--
Lori A. Stanley
Professor of Anthropology
Luther College
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Decorah, Iowa 52101
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