[Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga
Lori Stanley
stanleyl at LUTHER.EDU
Fri Jul 25 05:48:38 UTC 2014
Sky,
After I sent the previous email it occurred to me that the 1885
autobiography was probably not what you were looking for, but I wasn't able
to check the document for a reference to "Caramonya" since I don't have
access to my files right now. You cleared up that question with your last
email.
An online search has reminded me that Hamilton's original journal is in the
Lewis Henry Morgan archives, and I'm pretty sure I have a copy of it. In
fact, the line about "Caramonya," the "old Indian who often visits us,"
sounds very familiar. I'll check on this when I get back to Decorah in a
few days.
Lori
On Thu, Jul 24, 2014 at 9:25 PM, Jimm G. GoodTracks <jgoodtracks at gmail.com>
wrote:
> Thanks Sky! Great read that fills in and colors some of the early day
> life and scenes in the life of the people.
>
> *From:* Sky Campbell <sky at LEGENDREADERS.COM>
> *Sent:* Thursday, July 24, 2014 7:06 PM
> *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
> *Subject:* Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga
>
> Thanks for the idea but unfortunately I already have that. It isn't his
> journal but instead Hamilton was asked to write an autobiography. This
> autobiography is great reading and is in the form of a letter but
> unfortunately it isn't his journal :(.
>
>
>
> I'll attach it to this email just in case someone is interested. Jimm, I
> believe you've seen this before but if not, happy reading! :)
>
>
>
> Sky
>
>
>
> *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf Of
> *Lori Stanley
> *Sent:* Thursday, July 24, 2014 3:12 PM
> *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
> *Subject:* Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga
>
>
>
> Sky,
> Here is the reference for the published version of Hamilton's journal:
>
> Hamilton, William
>
> 1885 Autobiography of Reverend William Hamilton. *Transactions and
> Reports of the Nebraska State Historical Society* 1:60-75.
>
>
>
> I'm sure I have a copy and could send you a PDF, but I'm out of town for a
> few days. Let me know if you get hold of it. If not, I'll send it when I
> get back.
>
>
>
> Lori
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 23, 2014 at 2:19 PM, Campbell, Sky <sky at omtribe.org> wrote:
>
> Those names are listed with "manyi" in other sources. For example, Catlin
> has "Neu-mon-ya" and "Wash-ka-mon-ya" where that "manyi" can (usually)
> refer to "walk" or "always". Ioway treaties has spellings like
> "Washcommanee" and "Ne-o-mon-ni". What I'm thinking is that perhaps the
> "monga" came from looking a poor copies of old documents and that those "g"
> characters are most likely "y" characters. These characters are
> handwritten and it only takes one little movement to "close up" a "y" at
> the top and make it look like a "g".
>
>
>
> I've seen "Niyu Manyi" translated as walking rain, moving rain, and always
> raining. I tend to lean towards that last one.
>
>
>
> The name "Washka Manyi" as been translated as great walker, great marcher,
> and fast dancer so that one is a little tougher. I can see how "washka"
> could maybe be a mash-up of "washi" (dance) and "kątha" (fast). But when I
> decided to hit up a Ponca friend about his name "Washka" (that's his legal
> name, not just his "Indian name"), I found out the full form of his name is
> "Washka Mathi" which he translated as "Stands Strong." I know that "mathi"
> in Ponca/Omaha is a cognate to the Otoe-Ioway "manyi" and also that Otoes
> and Ioways had the form "mathi" a long time ago. So that got me to
> thinking that perhaps this Ioway individual might have roughly the same
> name as my Ponca friend (cognate forms notwithstanding). The only trouble
> with that theory is that I've never seen a term "washka" to mean "strong"
> like it does in Ponca. Dorsey shows the Jiwere cognate to "washka" as
> "brixe" (which is the term I am familiar with). So is this one of those
> instances where Otoe-Ioway had more in common with Dhegiha almost 200 years
> ago and "washka" was used to mean "strong" (or a similiar idea) but no
> longer does? It would seem likely since some of those translations for
> that name have the word "great" in them along with walker or marcher.
> Strong walker/strong marcher perhaps? But without more information, this
> is just yet another thing for me to keep in the back of my mind until I
> find that bit of information that helps clear it up. May that day come
> soon!
>
>
>
> *Sky Campbell*
>
> Language Director
>
> Otoe-Missouria Tribe
>
> (580) 723-4466, ext. 111 <%28580%29%20723-4466%2C%20ext.%20111>
>
> sky at omtribe.org
>
>
>
> *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf Of
> *Rory Larson
> *Sent:* Wednesday, July 23, 2014 1:15 PM
> *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
> *Subject:* Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga
>
>
>
> Sky, do we know what “monga” means in the other names, Washkamonga and
> Neumonga?
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> Rory
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
> <SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>] *On Behalf Of *Campbell, Sky
> *Sent:* Wednesday, July 23, 2014 9:28 AM
> *To:* SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU
> *Subject:* Re: [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga
>
>
>
> Greg was gracious enough to let me see the copies he was drawing from and
> sure enough, it looks like "monga" in the name. But what I found
> interesting in that document was other familiar names...Washkamonga and
> Neumonga which we've seen elsewhere with the "monga" portion spelled with
> an "ny" instead of an "ng". I also looked at the 1842 Ioway census and
> found "Caromonga" but instead it was spelled "Caramonya". I did a quick
> Google search for "Caramonya" and got a couple hits on some books that had
> excerpts from Hamilton's journal. He describes "Caramonya" as "an old
> Indian who often visits us." Unfortunately he doesn't translate the name.
> My first reaction was to think that perhaps Hamilton might be using his own
> orthography that he used in his books but the rest of the spelling doesn't
> bear that out. I'd love to see more of Hamilton's journal to see if there
> are any clues in there. Anyone know where I could get a hold of such a
> thing?
>
>
>
> So it looks like that ending may actually be "manyi" (but perhaps not for
> the "ng/ny swap" that I suggested but maybe just a handwriting issue). And
> it looks like both versions were written by the same person (there is the
> same flourish on the capital "C" in both versions of the name).
>
>
>
> Council meeting image:
>
> [image: Caromonga.jpg]
>
>
>
> Ioway census image:
>
> [image: Caramonya.jpg]
>
>
>
> So if it is "Cara-" instead of "Caro-", then that can open up more
> possibilities perhaps. But I'm still only coming up with ketą, kera and
> giro as my top suggestions for now.
>
>
>
> *Sky Campbell*
>
> Language Director
>
> Otoe-Missouria Tribe
>
> (580) 723-4466, ext. 111 <%28580%29%20723-4466%2C%20ext.%20111>
>
> sky at omtribe.org
>
>
>
> *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
> <SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>] *On Behalf Of *Jimm G. GoodTracks
> *Sent:* Tuesday, July 22, 2014 9:35 PM
> *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
> *Subject:* [Possible SPAM] Re: Carominga
> *Importance:* Low
>
>
>
> Well, going on what Jill says, the closet thing I can find is: *šedánaŋe;
> šedánaŋa** adv/prn. *that distant curvilinear object yonder; that
> distant land in sight. However, I'm not comfortable that it is a good
> fit for "Carominga." I don't know if the original notation was from a
> French or English document, and as such, cannot know to consider the
> phonetic value of the "C."
>
>
>
> But going with the possibility of it being "Ké" as in "Kétan" (turtle), we
> have:
>
> *kétan; ketúnha;* keton^a (SKN); qetan (DOR)* n. *turtle. *kétan xúha**
> n. *turtle shell. *Kétan* wáñi pí añáñe ke, It is said that *turtle*
> meat is good.
>
> *kégrédheiñe; kégrédheiŋe* spotted (or) sand turtle
>
> *kehtonha* (SKN) snapping turtle; snapper
>
> *kémarax^ín; kemárax^in* (LWR) snapping turtle
>
> *ké márax^in* “wrinkled turtle” mud turtle
>
> *ketánna* (LWR) snapping turtle; snapper
>
>
>
> But you see, the best contender is for:
>
> * kéra** adj. *clear (*sky*). *Clear Day;* *Clear Sky
> Appears* (*a personal Buffalo Clan name*)* n. *Kéra Tán^in; K^éra Tán^i
> n. ***SEE*: *githóje; clear.*
>
>
>
> Also, thinking about the breakup of syllables as Justin suggest, there
> could be a connect with:
>
> *rominjí** n. *island. *Rominjí^iŋe(mi); Romínchiŋe;
> Irómiŋhšji; Jérominje;* Romijiiŋemi (DOR); rúmitsí (MAX) (*a personal
> Buffalo Clan and Beaver Clan name*) Little Island. *Romihingu ~
> Romihiŋu* (SKN)*;* Romijiiŋemi (DOR) (*a personal Pigeon Clan name*)
> Island.
>
> And there was maybe the "g" is really a "j" which gives only one unlikely
> possibility:
>
> *mánje* (?)(LWR)*; masjé** adj/v.i. *hot, warm (*weather*).
>
> With the above, one could squeeze out a "Turtle Island," but, this
> possibility is not convincing to me.
>
>
>
> *SO THEN, *in appreciation to everyone's input, I have arrived full
> circle to my original conjecture that the name that most likely fits the
> documented transcription is:
>
>
>
> *KéraMánge* (Clearing Day All About~ Prevailing). In this case, the
> "mánge" (sitting) is used in the sense of a positional verb, saying that
> the clearing of the sky, was extensive over a wide area such might be view
> on the breathe of the open plains. Further, such a rendering would be
> consistant to similar clan names.
>
>
>
> I suggest one possibilty for Grey in working with his narrative is to
> include with the composed name, the original transcription, such as, "
> *KéraMánge* (Clearing Day All About) [Carminga (Document Source
> citations)]. Unless, new evidence appears, or further information, this
> is the best that can be made of that name.
>
>
>
> Hánhe Pi, Good Night, Buenas Noches!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Greer, Jill <Greer-J at MSSU.EDU>
>
> *Sent:* Saturday, July 19, 2014 6:22 PM
>
> *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
>
> *Subject:* Re: Carominga
>
>
>
> Justin and Sky -
>
> You guys with your programming talents- impressive!
>
>
>
> Just one question for Jimm and Greg - if the original person who
> transcribed the name was French (or a mixed blood literate in French- as
> was common around St. Joseph), the first syllabie "Ca" could even be /Sa/
> or /se/ rather than Key, n'est pas? I hate to muddy the waters, but all
> it takes is one person to miss the cedilla and we've switched the sound
> totally. These old names are so slippery, but fascinating!
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> Jill
>
>
>
>
>
> On Jul 18, 2014, at 8:17 PM, "Mcbride, Justin" <
> jtmcbri at OSTATEMAIL.OKSTATE.EDU>
>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> When you showed me that program last year, Sky, I remember thinking, "Now,
> THIS is awesome!" As a guy who, for years, was asked questions like,
> "What's my Granddad's name mean?" on a weekly basis, only to be handed a
> string of indecipherable 'ah's, 'eh's, and hyphens with a few consonants
> mixed in for good measure, I would have relished the opportunity to see a
> list the possible permutations presented at once. Now, if you could just
> build in some phonotactic constraint logic and SQL interaction with some
> sort of lexical database to provide suggestions--you know, the easy
> stuff--you'd have the proverbial better mousetrap! :) Ah, it's fun to
> dream!
>
>
>
> By the way, the name Kke Leze was the name of one of the last living male
> L1 Ks speakers. -jtm
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 7:34 PM, Sky Campbell <sky at legendreaders.com>
> wrote:
>
> Justin,
>
>
>
> I thought of that too (and even thought of turtle LOL...ke for ketą) but
> nothing came to mind for the rest. We have a precedent for this which is a
> name listed as "Ke Greðe" (Prairie Turtle/Spotted Turtle). I seem to
> remember one or two more but can't think of them off the top of my head.
>
>
>
> And thanks for pointing out the "g" possibly being the "j" sound. That is
> usually one of the first things I consider but it totally slipped my mind.
> Man, I really, REALLY need to finish my "character/morpheme swap" program
> for situations like this.
>
>
>
> Sky
>
>
>
> *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf Of
> *Mcbride, Justin
> *Sent:* Friday, July 18, 2014 5:46 PM
> *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
> *Subject:* Re: Carominga
>
>
>
> Howdy, Jimm,
>
>
>
> I wonder about the division of syllables into Caro and Monga. Is it
> possible that it could be Ca Romonga? I ask becasue, if it were a Kaw name,
> I'd think it might have something to do with kke, 'turtle,' which I'm
> pretty sure I've seen spelled as Ca in names before. I would also look at
> the r as representing either Ks y or l, and -ga part at the end (if it's
> not been switched, as Sky suggests, which I think is probable) as possibly
> representing like the Ks syllable j^e, which seems to happen fairly
> frequently in the names I've looked at. In short, I would expect something
> like kke yaNmaNj^e, which doesn't ring any bells at all in Ks. Now, I don't
> know much at all about IOM, lexically or phonologically--maybe this makes
> even less sense in IOM--but thought I just might throw that out there as
> food for thought.
>
>
>
> All the best,
>
> -Justin
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 3:54 PM, Sky Campbell <sky at legendreaders.com>
> wrote:
>
> The "caro" portion has me thinking of a few possibilities:
>
>
>
> kera (as you pointed out)
>
> giro (happy)
>
>
>
> The "monga" has me thinking of:
>
>
>
> mange (lying down)
>
> mange (chest)
>
> womanke (easy) <-- perhaps unlikely
>
> mąnka (medicine) <-- seems the most unlikely but I thought I'd throw it in
> there
>
>
>
> Last is a "theory" that I have that perhaps somehow, some way, "monga"
> might be a form of "manyi/manye". Considering how many examples of "ng"
> and "ny" being swapped out (sunge/sunye, -inge/-inye, etc.), I wonder if
> perhaps it might be a version of "manyi". Especially since that word is
> used in so many names already and your friend noted that it appears in
> other names as well. This is just speculation, of course. Speaking of
> which, if they could provide examples of other names that use "monga", it
> might help us figure it out.
>
>
>
> Sky
>
>
>
> *From:* Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] *On Behalf Of
> *Jimm G. GoodTracks
> *Sent:* Friday, July 18, 2014 9:25 AM
> *To:* SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu
> *Subject:* Fw: Carominga
>
>
>
> Does anyone have some thoughts to decipher the name: "Caromonga." The
> last part appears to be "mange" (be in sitting position). The first could
> be "kera" (cleared sky).
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Greg Olson <caxelolson at gmail.com>
>
> *Sent:* Friday, July 11, 2014 4:48 PM
>
> *To:* Jimm GoodTracks <jgoodtracks at gmail.com>
>
> *Subject:* Carominga
>
>
>
> Jimm, while proofing my manuscript, I came across an Ioway name I had
> overlooked. Caromonga. He is mentioned insome council meetings during the
> 1840s. I notice the end of the name- monga -appears in other names too.
>
>
>
> Greg
>
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> --
> Lori A. Stanley
> Professor of Anthropology
> Luther College
> 700 College Drive
> Decorah, Iowa 52101
> 563-387-1283
>
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--
Lori A. Stanley
Professor of Anthropology
Luther College
700 College Drive
Decorah, Iowa 52101
563-387-1283
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