major bookstore chain--uggh!

Wed Feb 16 23:49:56 UTC 2000

Mark,

Yes, I see your point of course, and I understand the reasoning. In the
Australian education system, we do actually talk about LOTE (language(s)
other than English) teachers, LOTE courses etc. Like the USA and Canada, we
are an immigrant nation, with large numbers of "foreign" languages used here
(Arabic, Cantonese, Vietnamese, Italian etc). We also have a large number of
indigenous "foreign" languages (Warlpiri, Arrente, Pitjantjatjara etc). Thus
the acronym "LOTE" is actually starting to catch on for this very reason.
It's awkward, I know, but it's preferable to "foreign".

Adam Schembri

>From: Mark Mandel <Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM>
>Reply-To: "For the discussion of linguistics and signed languages."
>      <SLLING-L at ADMIN.HUMBERC.ON.CA>
>To: SLLING-L at ADMIN.HUMBERC.ON.CA
>Subject: Re: major bookstore chain--uggh!
>Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 15:53:17 -0500
>
>Adam Schembri writes:
>
> >>>
>What I don't understand is some people's insistence that ASL books ought to
>be in the "foreign language" section of bookstores. Given that ASL evolved
>entirely in the USA, and may actually result from a mixture of LSF and
>Martha's Vineyard Sign Language (an older sign language that had been used
>in the USA for several generations), it seems to me that ASL is only
>slightly more "foreign" in North America than English!
><<<
>
>The problem is that there's no other convenient way in English to refer to
>"languages other than English". Would you also object to finding Navajo and
>Cherokee dictionaries in the "foreign language" section? Like English,
>bookstores don't have a category for "languages other than English but not
>foreign". Offhand I can think of only a few alternatives:
>
>1. Put them in with "grammars and dictionaries", alongside books about
>English
>for English-speakers. Obviously unacceptable to us.
>
>2. Put them in with books about codes and signaling systems, if you have
>such a
>section. Also bad.
>
>3. Make a new section and call it "sign language". When the SLLING-L crowd
>descends on you for assuming and implying that all "sign language" is the
>same
>language  ;-)\  , point out  that you only have about five titles in this
>section -- not enough to even justify a separate section -- and they're all
>about American Sign Language or (natural or artificial) pidgin forms
>thereof.
>
>I'm not saying I agree with the implications of the categorization, but I
>don't
>think there's any question of the reason for it
>
>-- Mark A. Mandel
>
>
>
>
>
>Adam Schembri <acschembri at HOTMAIL.COM> on 02/15/2000 07:30:34 PM
>
>Please respond to "For the discussion of linguistics and signed languages."
>       <SLLING-L at ADMIN.HUMBERC.ON.CA>
>
>To:   SLLING-L at ADMIN.HUMBERC.ON.CA
>cc:    (bcc: Mark Mandel/Dragon Systems USA)
>Subject:  Re: major bookstore chain--uggh!
>
>
>
>I'm not sure why you think the term "sign dictionary" is an oxymoron since
>a
>dictionary may simply be an alphabetically ordered reference book (i.e.,
>the
>Dictionary of Biography). Perhaps you mean that they really should be
>listed
>as ASL-English dictionaries, or something of this nature.
>
>Some have argued that the term "dictionary" ought not be applied to sign
>language reference books, and that a distinction can be made between books
>such as the BSL/English dictionary edited by Brien (which list signs
>according to handshapes, and gives English equivalents for BSL signs and
>then also provides definitions in English of these equivalents) or the
>Auslan dictionary by Johnston (which list signs according to handshapes and
>attempts to define signs in English and provide, where possible, English
>equivalents) and other books (such as Sternberg or Costello's reference
>books for ASL) as glossaries. I have some sympathy with this view.
>
>What I don't understand is some people's insistence that ASL books ought to
>be in the "foreign language" section of bookstores. Given that ASL evolved
>entirely in the USA, and may actually result from a mixture of LSF and
>Martha's Vineyard Sign Language (an older sign language that had been used
>in the USA for several generations), it seems to me that ASL is only
>slightly more "foreign" in North America than English!
>
>Adam Schembri
>
> >From: "Karlin, Ben" <MFKARLB at MAIL.DMH.STATE.MO.US>
> >Reply-To: "For the discussion of linguistics and signed languages."
> >      <SLLING-L at ADMIN.HUMBERC.ON.CA>
> >To: SLLING-L at ADMIN.HUMBERC.ON.CA
> >Subject: Re: major bookstore chain--uggh!
> >Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 10:46:00 -0600
> >
> >I suspect that the practice comes from the history of "Sign Language
> >Dictionaries" being a principal source of sign instruction. (Isn't a
>"Sign
> >Dictionary" an oxymoron?  Think about it.)
> >
> >A related question that comes to mind, haven't most of these books
>actually
> >been glossaries or lexicons?  Is my understanding of these terms wrong?
> >
> >Ben Karlin, St Louis MO
> >  ----------
> > > From: Petra Eccarius
> > > To: SLLING-L at ADMIN.HUMBERC.ON.CA
> > > Subject: Re: major bookstore chain--uggh!
> > > Date: Tuesday, 15 February, 2000 10:28AM
> > >
> > > The Barnes and Noble in Lafayette, Indiana (the closest
> > > for Purdue University students) also puts their Sign
> > > Language dictionaries, etc. in the reference section.
> > > It struck me as odd as I know I _have_ seen them in the
> > > foreign language section of other stores...
> > >
> > > ....petra
> > >  --
> > > Petra Eccarius
> > > Graduate Student in Linguistics
> > > Purdue University-West Laffayette
> > > eccarius at purdue.edu
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Fri, 11 Feb 2000, Linda Lee Lonning wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hello everyone--
> > > >
> > > > An aside on how we see signed languages treated in
> > > terms of their
> > > > recognition in their placement in libraries and even
> > > in bookstores.  (I
> > > > read the ISO one initial email realllly quickly so
> > > excuse me if I'm not
> > > > capturing the essence of what ISO is exactly used
> > > for.)
> > > >
> > > > It has always rubbed me the wrong way as I peruse my
> > > area bookstores here
> > > > in Milwaukee (I'm talking specifically about our
> > > Barnes and Noble chain
> > > > here) to see ASL  **NOT** in the section for foreign
> > > languages (in the
> > > > case of ASL, and many other languages being present,
> > > please excuse the
> > > > reference to "foreign" in this case...but you see my
> > > point)...but they
> > > > place them in the *reference section (with the
> > > dictionaries, after all,
> > > > you can "learn" sign language by just memorizing a
> > > bunch of pictures,
> > > > right??  Uhhh!  ...OR I also see sign language books
> > > placed by the
> > > > enlarged-print books!  (After all, that's what sign
> > > language is, right?
> > > > An auxillary "device" or mechanism for communication,
> > > right??
> > > > Double-uhhh!!)
> > > >
> > > > I've asked personel at each book store what their
> > > rationale is for the
> > > > placement of sign language books where they are and
> > > explained that it
> > > > would more fairly placed at least with the "foreign"
> > > languages.  I've
> > > > submitted a feedback card to their regional or
> > > corporate office (where
> > > > ever that one was supposed to go)...NO response at
> > > all.  I was told I
> > > > should write something like their regional
> > > headquarters, etc.  Wow.  How
> > > > customer-friendly (?!)  BUT I'm told, the placement
> > > of media for Barnes
> > > > and Noble is decided higher up.
> > > >
> > > > I encourage folks to stop in their local
> > > bookstores/chains and check-out
> > > > where sign language/Deaf culture books are placed as
> > > well.  Let me know
> > > > what you find-- ;) .
> > > >
> > > > Linda L. Lonning, BS, CI & CT
> > > > University of Wisconsin--Milwaukee--Part-time Staff
> > > Interpreter
> > > > Community-based Interpreter with 3 Area Agencies
> > >
>
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