Antw: Re: SW-HamNoSys

[Valerie Sutton]

Hello Franz -
I want you to know I appreciate this conversation, and I am sorry if I said something that disturbed you -

And thank you for pointing out Stefan's creative use of these tools in his classroom - Stefan is a remarkable teacher of Deaf children and is very creative indeed ;-)

DELEGS is software that is dependent on glosses - I never even thought about that, but that is true...

SignPuddle is not dependent on glosses. In SignText, I and others write directly in the movements of sign languages without ever using any gloss system or thinking in a spoken language…

However, other SignPuddle users do use glosses to compose their documents - so it depends on the writer…SignPuddle has both options...

So please tell me how I can correct my description of the process - I want to say it correctly… Perhaps it is the term "translation" that has a different meaning in the linguistics profession, that I do not understand? We have a Translate Feature in SignPuddle that is based on glosses, so we have used that term freely...

Val ;-)

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On Jul 4, 2012, at 11:35 PM, Franz.Dotter at UNI-KLU.AC.AT wrote:

> Dear Stefan and others,
>  
> I really estimate your approach to use creative means in order to teach German (or any other spoken language to deaf students). I'm only pleading for correct info. What disturbed me was Valeries sentence: "can create documents that translate spoken language textbooks, into written sign language". I think all agree that a formulation like: "the program can a) convert glossed sign language sentences into SignWriting, b) convert single written German words into DGS or Signed Germanequivalents, given in SignWriting c) a written German sentence is converted word-by-word into DGS and Signed German equivalents, given in SignWriting, by that offering a Signed German version of the original sentence". These achievements are great enough and many teachers will take them over gratefully; therefore we need not say "there is translation from German to DGS".
>  
> To give an example: If you take a German sentence like "Ich werde gehen" = (I will go), you get the auxiliary verb "werden" also as a sign (which is clearly Signed German; and has some pedagogical advanthge in some settings, but is not DGS)
>  
> Concerning the mouthings: I understand the difference between the full "Mundbildschrift" and the hints given in DELEGS/SignWriting now. But the fact remains that these hints do not represent default mouthings as they are used in DGS; they are still hints towards spoken language (to repeat: I do neither critisise this from a pedagocical nor from a bilingual perspective; I only want to state that these elements are not (Greman) sign language elements).
>  
> Best Regards
>  
> Franz
> 
> >>> Stefan Wöhrmann<stefanwoehrmann at GEBAERDENSCHRIFT.DE> 7/4/2012 11:46 >>>
> Hello Valerie, Franz and everyone –
>  
> It is just as you say Valerie and I want to repeat that.
>  
> Delegs iss a wonderful tool to create bilingual materials and “It depends on the skill of the writer (translator). It also depends on what the writer wants to do.”
>  
> So of course you can create translations from an idea expressed in spoken language to the same idea expressed in DGS. The wonderful thing is that you can rely on a written document which shows perfectly the writers idea how to sign this given concept or that shows how a given sign language performance can be translated to spoken language.
>  
> Unfortunately there is obviously a misunderstanding in your idea that the “Mundbilder”   symbolise sounds within the SignWriting face – they do not!!!
>  
> Woehrmanns-speechwriting should not be mixed up with my invention of “Mundbildschrift” a system that supports the articulation process in deaf students...
>  
> The “Mundbilder” in SignWriting (GebaerdenSchrift) are simply meant to document mouth- tongue – lip movements   - it is a guessing game like lipreading – but including the information coming from your hands it is easy to understand.
>  
> Once more – Delegs  - is a tool that allows anybody to create written documents of Sign language DGS, ASL,  and spoken language. Why should this not be a translation? The scribe is just asked to write what he wants to write... smile.
>  
> Stefan
>  
>  
>  
>  
> Von: linguists interested in signed languages [mailto:SLLING-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU] Im Auftrag von Valerie Sutton
> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 4. Juli 2012 16:03
> An: SLLING-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU
> Betreff: Re: Antw: Re: SW-HamNoSys
>  
> Hello Franz and everyone -
>  
> It depends on the skill of the writer (translator). It also depends on what the writer wants to do.
>  
> If the software is used without a knowledge of sign languages, and how to translate, then you are right that any software and any writing system can be used incorrectly.
>  
> But a translator who knows sign languages and spoken languages well, and knows how to translate between the languages, and knows how to use the SignWriting-related software to produce good translations, can produce linguistically correct documents using any SignWriting-related software.
>  
> In the case of SignPuddle, we have an Editor called the SignText Editor. In the SignText Editor we can write directly in sign languages without any connection to spoken languages. We can also then save each individual sign within a sign language document, into a dictionary, which can then be accessed by DELEGS software.
>  
> Inside DELEGS software, the writer can then write the gloss for the sign language sentences that will access or bring in the signs from the special SignPuddle file created for the work…so the writer in DELEGS is not required to do Signed German - a translation that provides proper spoken German and proper DGS can be created using a combination of SignPuddle's SignText Editor, SignPuddle dictionaries, and the DELEG's Editor.
>  
> I know the DELEGs developers are planning to produce their own Editor in time, but at the moment, this is how it is being done…
>  
> Val ;-)
>  
> -----------
>  
>  
> On Jul 3, 2012, at 11:48 PM, Franz.Dotter at UNI-KLU.AC.AT wrote:
> 
> 
> Dear colleagues,
>  
> Concerning DELEGS you have to add that "translate" is not the adequate word here: DELEGS simply puts a German word into a SignWriting notation of an adequate DGS sign. If you use a real German sentence, you create pure Signed German. Only if you use a correct glossing of a signed sentence (i.e. if you know how the grammar of DGS), you will get a grammatically acceptable DGS sentence. Moreover, the face is enriched with a full notation of the sounds of the German word used (not only a possible mouthing).
> Both systems, the Woehrmann-system of symbolising sounds within the SignWriting face as well as DELEGS do have their merits for several educational settings and I would not like to underscore the creative work contained in them.
> But: There is no TRANSLATION from anywhere to somewhere. As there are some similar advertisements of "translation" in the context of sign languages /cf. e.g. also http://www.pslt.org/), I'm a little bit concerned about the result of such advertisements when people from outside learn that all these announcemenst were not true. Please, tell the linguistic truth!
>  
> Best Regards
>  
> Franz Dotter
>  
> 
> 1. Now, there is new software from the University of Hamburg and C1 WPS Workplace Solutions, called DELEGS, that coordinates with the SignPuddle DGS dictionary, Stefan and other teachers of Deaf students in Germany, can create documents that translate spoken language textbooks, into written sign language, so their students can understand both languages better and can grasp the content of the textbooks. So the German SignPuddles online are geared towards Deaf Education, and are used with this software:
> 
> DELEGS
> http://www.delegs.com/delegseditor/
> 
> DELEGS stands for "German Learning with SignWriting" but in German of course…I believe it is "Deutsch lernen mit GebaerdenSchrift" (Stefan and others, please correct me if I am wrong ;-))
> 
> Anyway - that specific database is impressive for its educational purpose…
> 
> THANK YOU, to all of you, who have created DELEGS…and thank you to Stefan Woehrmann for making this possible
> 
>  

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