AW: Antw: Re: SW-HamNoSys

[Stefan W öhrmann]

Hi Franz and everyone, 

maybe that I do not understand your point. If I sign to my deaf student in
DGS and ask him to translate this and to write this in German he is asked to
write the sentence or question in spoken language with correct grammar and
spelling. 

Now I do not sign but offer the same message in a written form. With this
brilliant new software Delegs we can take signs from the SignPuddle
dictionary and can create DGS documents in order to support the deaf student
to improve spoken language skills. 

Hearing can practice ad improve DGS as well ... 

There are different steps within this curriculum. Very often I offer in the
beginning exact signed German written in GebaerdenSchrift / Sutton
SignWriting including the mouthings. 

Well the mouthings are so important. Not only in exact signed German (LBG)

"...But the fact remains that these hints do not represent default mouthings
as they are used in DGS;" 

Well from my point of view and after looking at soooo many DGS performances
I disagree. In DGS these mouthings are very much part of DGS. 

Without these information it is not easy to understand.. smile. And of
course beside these mouthings that represent at least a part of a German
word we can see mouth-gesture - ... no problem with that. Valerie Suton
offers lots of options to document these non manual hints. 

All best 

Stefan 







On Thu, 5 Jul 2012 08:35:10 +0200, Franz.Dotter at UNI-KLU.AC.AT wrote:

>Dear Stefan and others,
> 
>I really estimate your approach to use creative means in order to teach
>German (or any other spoken language to deaf students). I'm only
>pleading for correct info. What disturbed me was Valeries sentence: "can
>create documents that translate spoken language textbooks, into written
>sign language". I think all agree that a formulation like: "the program
>can a) convert glossed sign language sentences into SignWriting, b)
>convert single written German words into DGS or Signed
>Germanequivalents, given in SignWriting c) a written German sentence is
>converted word-by-word into DGS and Signed German equivalents, given in
>SignWriting, by that offering a Signed German version of the original
>sentence". These achievements are great enough and many teachers will
>take them over gratefully; therefore we need not say "there is
>translation from German to DGS".
> 
>To give an example: If you take a German sentence like "Ich werde
>gehen" = (I will go), you get the auxiliary verb "werden" also as a sign
>(which is clearly Signed German; and has some pedagogical advanthge in






>some settings, but is not DGS)
> 
>Concerning the mouthings: I understand the difference between the full
>"Mundbildschrift" and the hints given in DELEGS/SignWriting now. But the
>fact remains that these hints do not represent default mouthings as they
>are used in DGS; they are still hints towards spoken language (to
>repeat: I do neither critisise this from a pedagocical nor from a
>bilingual perspective; I only want to state that these elements are not
>(Greman) sign language elements).
> 
>Best Regards
> 
>Franz
>
>>>> Stefan Wöhrmann<stefanwoehrmann at GEBAERDENSCHRIFT.DE> 7/4/2012 11:46
>>>>
>
>Hello Valerie, Franz and everyone – 
> 
>It is just as you say Valerie and I want to repeat that. 
> 
>Delegs iss a wonderful tool to create bilingual materials and “It
>depends on the skill of the writer (translator). It also depends on what
>the writer wants to do.”
> 
>So of course you can create translations from an idea expressed in
>spoken language to the same idea expressed in DGS. The wonderful thing
>is that you can rely on a written document which shows perfectly the
>writers idea how to sign this given concept or that shows how a given
>sign language performance can be translated to spoken language. 
> 
>Unfortunately there is obviously a misunderstanding in your idea that
>the “Mundbilder”   symbolise sounds within the SignWriting face – they
>do not!!! 
> 
>Woehrmanns-speechwriting should not be mixed up with my invention of
>“Mundbildschrift” a system that supports the articulation process in
>deaf students... 
> 
>The “Mundbilder” in SignWriting (GebaerdenSchrift) are simply meant to
>document mouth- tongue – lip movements   - it is a guessing game like
>lipreading – but including the information coming from your hands it is
>easy to understand. 
> 
>Once more – Delegs  - is a tool that allows anybody to create written
>documents of Sign language DGS, ASL,  and spoken language. Why should
>this not be a translation? The scribe is just asked to write what he
>wants to write... smile. 
> 
>Stefan 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>
>
>Von: linguists interested in signed languages
>[mailto:SLLING-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU] Im Auftrag von Valerie
>Sutton
>Gesendet: Mittwoch, 4. Juli 2012 16:03
>An: SLLING-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU
>Betreff: Re: Antw: Re: SW-HamNoSys
>
> 
>Hello Franz and everyone -
>
> 
>
>It depends on the skill of the writer (translator). It also depends on
>what the writer wants to do.
>
> 
>
>If the software is used without a knowledge of sign languages, and how
>to translate, then you are right that any software and any writing
>system can be used incorrectly.
>
> 
>
>But a translator who knows sign languages and spoken languages well,
>and knows how to translate between the languages, and knows how to use
>the SignWriting-related software to produce good translations, can
>produce linguistically correct documents using any SignWriting-related
>software.
>
> 
>
>In the case of SignPuddle, we have an Editor called the SignText
>Editor. In the SignText Editor we can write directly in sign languages
>without any connection to spoken languages. We can also then save each
>individual sign within a sign language document, into a dictionary,
>which can then be accessed by DELEGS software.
>
> 
>
>Inside DELEGS software, the writer can then write the gloss for the
>sign language sentences that will access or bring in the signs from the
>special SignPuddle file created for the work…so the writer in DELEGS is
>not required to do Signed German - a translation that provides proper
>spoken German and proper DGS can be created using a combination of
>SignPuddle's SignText Editor, SignPuddle dictionaries, and the DELEG's
>Editor.
>
> 
>
>I know the DELEGs developers are planning to produce their own Editor
>in time, but at the moment, this is how it is being done…
>
> 
>
>Val ;-)
>
> 
>
>-----------
>
> 
>
> 
>
>On Jul 3, 2012, at 11:48 PM, Franz.Dotter at UNI-KLU.AC.AT wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>Dear colleagues,
>
> 
>
>Concerning DELEGS you have to add that "translate" is not the adequate
>word here: DELEGS simply puts a German word into a SignWriting notation
>of an adequate DGS sign. If you use a real German sentence, you create
>pure Signed German. Only if you use a correct glossing of a signed
>sentence (i.e. if you know how the grammar of DGS), you will get a
>grammatically acceptable DGS sentence. Moreover, the face is enriched
>with a full notation of the sounds of the German word used (not only a
>possible mouthing).
>
>Both systems, the Woehrmann-system of symbolising sounds within the
>SignWriting face as well as DELEGS do have their merits for several
>educational settings and I would not like to underscore the creative
>work contained in them.
>
>But: There is no TRANSLATION from anywhere to somewhere. As there are
>some similar advertisements of "translation" in the context of sign
>languages /cf. e.g. also http://www.pslt.org/), I'm a little bit
>concerned about the result of such advertisements when people from
>outside learn that all these announcemenst were not true. Please, tell
>the linguistic truth!
>
> 
>
>Best Regards
>
> 
>
>Franz Dotter
>
> 
>
>
>1. Now, there is new software from the University of Hamburg and C1 WPS
>Workplace Solutions, called DELEGS, that coordinates with the SignPuddle
>DGS dictionary, Stefan and other teachers of Deaf students in Germany,
>can create documents that translate spoken language textbooks, into
>written sign language, so their students can understand both languages
>better and can grasp the content of the textbooks. So the German
>SignPuddles online are geared towards Deaf Education, and are used with
>this software:
>
>DELEGS
>http://www.delegs.com/delegseditor/
>
>DELEGS stands for "German Learning with SignWriting" but in German of
>course…I believe it is "Deutsch lernen mit GebaerdenSchrift" (Stefan and
>others, please correct me if I am wrong ;-))
>
>Anyway - that specific database is impressive for its educational
>purpose…
>
>THANK YOU, to all of you, who have created DELEGS…and thank you to
>Stefan Woehrmann for making this possible
>
> 
>