AW: Antw: Re: SW-HamNoSys

Thu Jul 5 06:35:10 UTC 2012

Dear Stefan and others,

I really estimate your approach to use creative means in order to teach
German (or any other spoken language to deaf students). I'm only
pleading for correct info. What disturbed me was Valeries sentence: "can
create documents that translate spoken language textbooks, into written
sign language". I think all agree that a formulation like: "the program
can a) convert glossed sign language sentences into SignWriting, b)
convert single written German words into DGS or Signed
Germanequivalents, given in SignWriting c) a written German sentence is
converted word-by-word into DGS and Signed German equivalents, given in
SignWriting, by that offering a Signed German version of the original
sentence". These achievements are great enough and many teachers will
take them over gratefully; therefore we need not say "there is
translation from German to DGS".

To give an example: If you take a German sentence like "Ich werde
gehen" = (I will go), you get the auxiliary verb "werden" also as a sign
(which is clearly Signed German; and has some pedagogical advanthge in
some settings, but is not DGS)

Concerning the mouthings: I understand the difference between the full
"Mundbildschrift" and the hints given in DELEGS/SignWriting now. But the
fact remains that these hints do not represent default mouthings as they
are used in DGS; they are still hints towards spoken language (to
repeat: I do neither critisise this from a pedagocical nor from a
bilingual perspective; I only want to state that these elements are not
(Greman) sign language elements).

Best Regards

Franz

>>> Stefan Wöhrmann<stefanwoehrmann at GEBAERDENSCHRIFT.DE> 7/4/2012 11:46
>>>

Hello Valerie, Franz and everyone – 

It is just as you say Valerie and I want to repeat that. 

Delegs iss a wonderful tool to create bilingual materials and “It
depends on the skill of the writer (translator). It also depends on what
the writer wants to do.”

So of course you can create translations from an idea expressed in
spoken language to the same idea expressed in DGS. The wonderful thing
is that you can rely on a written document which shows perfectly the
writers idea how to sign this given concept or that shows how a given
sign language performance can be translated to spoken language. 

Unfortunately there is obviously a misunderstanding in your idea that
the “Mundbilder”   symbolise sounds within the SignWriting face – they
do not!!! 

Woehrmanns-speechwriting should not be mixed up with my invention of
“Mundbildschrift” a system that supports the articulation process in
deaf students... 

The “Mundbilder” in SignWriting (GebaerdenSchrift) are simply meant to
document mouth- tongue – lip movements   - it is a guessing game like
lipreading – but including the information coming from your hands it is
easy to understand. 

Once more – Delegs  - is a tool that allows anybody to create written
documents of Sign language DGS, ASL,  and spoken language. Why should
this not be a translation? The scribe is just asked to write what he
wants to write... smile. 

Stefan 

Von: linguists interested in signed languages
[mailto:SLLING-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU] Im Auftrag von Valerie
Sutton
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 4. Juli 2012 16:03
An: SLLING-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU
Betreff: Re: Antw: Re: SW-HamNoSys

Hello Franz and everyone -

It depends on the skill of the writer (translator). It also depends on
what the writer wants to do.

If the software is used without a knowledge of sign languages, and how
to translate, then you are right that any software and any writing
system can be used incorrectly.

But a translator who knows sign languages and spoken languages well,
and knows how to translate between the languages, and knows how to use
the SignWriting-related software to produce good translations, can
produce linguistically correct documents using any SignWriting-related
software.

In the case of SignPuddle, we have an Editor called the SignText
Editor. In the SignText Editor we can write directly in sign languages
without any connection to spoken languages. We can also then save each
individual sign within a sign language document, into a dictionary,
which can then be accessed by DELEGS software.

Inside DELEGS software, the writer can then write the gloss for the
sign language sentences that will access or bring in the signs from the
special SignPuddle file created for the work…so the writer in DELEGS is
not required to do Signed German - a translation that provides proper
spoken German and proper DGS can be created using a combination of
SignPuddle's SignText Editor, SignPuddle dictionaries, and the DELEG's
Editor.

I know the DELEGs developers are planning to produce their own Editor
in time, but at the moment, this is how it is being done…

Val ;-)

-----------

On Jul 3, 2012, at 11:48 PM, Franz.Dotter at UNI-KLU.AC.AT wrote:

Dear colleagues,

Concerning DELEGS you have to add that "translate" is not the adequate
word here: DELEGS simply puts a German word into a SignWriting notation
of an adequate DGS sign. If you use a real German sentence, you create
pure Signed German. Only if you use a correct glossing of a signed
sentence (i.e. if you know how the grammar of DGS), you will get a
grammatically acceptable DGS sentence. Moreover, the face is enriched
with a full notation of the sounds of the German word used (not only a
possible mouthing).

Both systems, the Woehrmann-system of symbolising sounds within the
SignWriting face as well as DELEGS do have their merits for several
educational settings and I would not like to underscore the creative
work contained in them.

But: There is no TRANSLATION from anywhere to somewhere. As there are
some similar advertisements of "translation" in the context of sign
languages /cf. e.g. also http://www.pslt.org/), I'm a little bit
concerned about the result of such advertisements when people from
outside learn that all these announcemenst were not true. Please, tell
the linguistic truth!

Best Regards

Franz Dotter

1. Now, there is new software from the University of Hamburg and C1 WPS
Workplace Solutions, called DELEGS, that coordinates with the SignPuddle
DGS dictionary, Stefan and other teachers of Deaf students in Germany,
can create documents that translate spoken language textbooks, into
written sign language, so their students can understand both languages
better and can grasp the content of the textbooks. So the German
SignPuddles online are geared towards Deaf Education, and are used with
this software:

DELEGS
http://www.delegs.com/delegseditor/

DELEGS stands for "German Learning with SignWriting" but in German of
course…I believe it is "Deutsch lernen mit GebaerdenSchrift" (Stefan and
others, please correct me if I am wrong ;-))

Anyway - that specific database is impressive for its educational
purpose…

THANK YOU, to all of you, who have created DELEGS…and thank you to
Stefan Woehrmann for making this possible

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