W & 6, F & 9

Fri May 14 17:21:49 UTC 2004

Dear Adam & list.

Query:

In theory, the W & 6 are different, as and the F & 9
are different, but I have not seen that difference on
hands in ASL, and I've looked, and asked
long-practiced certified interpreters.

In Brazil, at least in my research in Porto Alegre and
Pelotas, they do not differentiate between W & 3, or
at least not consistently.  When we were translating
the Sign Writing book to Libras, we had to seriously
ask that question as our dictionaries depend on
whether or not there really is a difference.

What the books say and what the hands do, apparently
seem to be different.

The ASL "F" hand is obscene in Brazil, so the
difference there between the ASL F hand and the Libras
F hand is clear an unmistakeable.

Is there clear videotape research that shows the
differences of the W&6 and the F&9 on a consistent
basis in ASL?

--- Valerie Sutton <sutton at SIGNWRITING.ORG> wrote:
> SignWriting List
> May 14, 2004
>
> Dear SW List:
> The SignWriting List listserve software seems to be
> having problems
> lately...Not all messages that people post make it
> to the List...Some
> of mine never post too...I have no clue what to do,
> so I have an
> understanding with Adam Frost that he will send me a
> copy of each
> message he posts privately to me too, so just in
> case it does not post,
> I can then post it for him...so here is one message
> from Adam that
> never made it to the List:
>
> ---------------------------
>
>         From:     seniorafrost at hotmail.com
>         Subject:        Re: 3-D Symbols
>         Date:   May 14, 2004 3:36:42 AM PDT
>         To:       SW-L at ADMIN.HUMBERC.ON.CA,
> sutton at signwriting.org
>
> > "Is the "W" hand different from the "6" hand all
> the
> > time or is it a "variant" without a real
> difference?"
>
> This is a question that I have been asked a lot. It
> is similar to the
> "F" and "9" question. I happen to have the answer
> because I have
> searched it out. :-) (Just a fun little fact that
> most don't really
> know.)
>
> The fingers for the numbers touch on the "tips" or
> the pads, while the
> fingers for the letters touch one in front of the
> other. (ie one finger
> is on the other's fingernail.) I know that this can
> be a little hard to
> understand. I you really want me to, I can explain
> it more.
>
> Adam
>
>
> -----------------------------
>
>
> On May 13, 2004, at 8:04 PM, Charles Butler wrote:
>
> > Hi Valerie and all,
> >
> > We will definitely need to see, particularly with
> the
> > IMWA, what languages use which symbols as
> > "minimal pairs".  For English, for example, we
> really
> > don't distinguish between k and q and could easily
> > write "kwik" rather than "quick" and be
> understood.
> > Linguistic questions for ASL users might include:
> >
> > "Is the "W" hand different from the "6" hand all
> the
> > time or is it a "variant" without a real
> difference?"
> >
> > And mechanically, for you, dear Valerie, who have
> > indefatigably created all 96 variations of
> everything,
> > we should work on a graphics program that will
> > automatically generate all 96 flips of a given
> "newly
> > generated" figure if it's needed, rather than you
> > having to do it manually.  That's what computers
> are
> > for, to take the tedium out of generating new
> > graphics.
> >
> > Blessings,
> >
> > Charles Butler
> >
> > --- Valerie Sutton <sutton at SIGNWRITING.ORG> wrote:
> >> SignWriting List
> >> May 13, 2004
> >>
> >> Hello Everyone, and Charles!
> >> Thanks for this question. I will be happy to mark
> a
> >> place for them in
> >> the numbering system. Yes, they belong under 3-D
> >> Symbols and it is easy
> >> to give them a spot. But I have around 5000
> symbols
> >> to add still, just
> >> for the basic handshapes and movement symbols and
> >> not even talking
> >> about the 3-D symbols - they haven't been entered
> >> yet at all...I have
> >> simply marked a spot for them...At this point I
> am
> >> pretty tired, and I
> >> don't know what to do...There are so many symbols
> to
> >> enter that we are
> >> going to have to be realistic about it...the 3-D
> >> symbols will have to
> >> come after all the needed handshapes...I believe
> I
> >> am going to have to
> >> release an IMWA version 1.0, and then later,
> create
> >> a 2.0 with more
> >> symbols. So the 3-D symbols, whether they be the
> >> ones used in
> >> DanceWriting, or yours, used in SignWriting, will
> >> have to wait for
> >> version 2.0....
> >>
> >> If you think about it, just the straight index
> >> finger alone, could have
> >> around 20 possible base rootshapes...the index on
> an
> >> E hand, the index
> >> on an E hand that only touches the thumb with the
> >> middle finger, and so
> >> forth...and each one of those has 96 rotations
> and
> >> flops...so it is
> >> rediculous, actually! ;-)
> >>
> >> Val ;-)
> >>
> >> -------------------------
> >>
> >> On May 13, 2004, at 1:46 PM, Charles Butler
> wrote:
> >>
> >>> RE: 3-D Symbols
> >>>
> >  H    > Curious, is my suggestion of a slanted
> circle (45
> >> degrees as opposed
> >>> to the 90 degree circle) available in this
> version
> >> for a quick writing
> >>> of boat, house, and all the others that require
> 45
> >> degrees without
> >>> having to create 96 3/4-hand shapes?  H   It would
> fit
> >> here under 3-D
> >>> symbols like the "underneath" half circle as a
> >> category by itself.
> >>>
> >  H    > Charles
> >>>
> >>> Valerie Sutton <sutton at SIGNWRITING.ORG> wrote:
> >>> SignWriting List
> >>> May 13, 2004
> >>>
> >>> The 3-D Symbols today are even more
> sophisticated.
> >> They will be
> >>> available in the International Movement Writing
> >> Alphabet (the IMWA).
> >>> The IMWA has eight symbol categories:
> >>>
> >>> Category 01 - Hand
> >>> Category 02 - Movement
> >>> Category 03 - Face
> >>> Category 04 - Head
> >>> Category 05 - UpperBody
> >>> Category 06 - FullBody
> >>> Category 07 - Space
> >>> Category 08 - Punctuation
> >>>
> >>> Category 07, Space, includes symbols that show
> >> spatial
> >>> relationships...such as Height, Width,
> Depth...and
> >> also 3D Symbols. In
> >>> the early history of SignWriting, we used the 3D
> >> symbols for the upper
> >>> body only, but then, over time, they were
> dropped
> >> because that kind of
> >>> detail is really for research use...for daily
> use,
> >> we write the third
> >>> dimension in other ways...
> >>>
> >>> Here is an explanation of the 3D Symbols from
> our
>
=== message truncated ===