ISWA Thumb Standardization?

Stuart Thiessen sw at PASSITONSERVICES.ORG
Sun Nov 18 03:48:55 UTC 2007 

Actually, I don't there needs to be any concern about sorting issues  
for symbol variants like the circles because it is simply another way  
of writing it. You can think of it almost like the way the letter "a"  
can be written in many different ways but they all mean 
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. Personally, I like the Parkhurst circles better than the original  
circles. There is more consistency in how the symbols can be taught.   
I think the circles should not be coded any differently but just kept  
as variants of each other (just another way).

For me, I am looking more at the consistency of the system. I'm not  
concerned at this point with how detailed the writing is. In other  
words, I think it is ideal if any symbol in the system (whether a  
finger, a thumb, a movement, a contact, a rootshape, a head, etc.) has  
one meaning. That reduces the amount of work for readers and writers.  
When a symbol can have multiple meanings, then it becomes more  
confusing.  That is why I think the ASL "A" should be different than  
it currently is. Yes it is understood, but it may not be ideal in  
terms of keeping the system consistent.

In my view, with a system as extensive as SignWriting, we want to keep  
as few "new" symbols or concepts as possible and reuse concepts as  
much as we can. This way, concepts already learned can be reused to  
learn them in new contexts. For example, we have the 2 lined arrows  
for straight vertical movements. I like that the Parkhursts applied  
that to the circles. That allows us to reuse the "2-lined means  
vertical" concept. The original circles did not reuse that concept so  
it became a new thing to learn. With the 2-lined arrows, I can reuse  
something I already learned. So that is where consistency and reusing  
concepts becomes important in convincing new learners of the system to  
try it. We can say, "Yes, there are a lot of symbols, but look how  
much consistency and reusability is built into the system." That is a  
very helpful argument.

I also suspect that in the future we may find there will be "font  
variations" that will occur. Some might be handwriting variants or  
some might be actually font differences. After all, take Hebrew for  
instance. It has several ways in which the letters can be written or  
printed. (See table taken from Wikipedia entry on Hebrew alphabet.)

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Some are used in more formal contexts and others in less formal  
contexts. But once you learn the Hebrew alphabet itself, then you can  
easily say "an Alef in standard print looks like this, but an Alef in  
Rashi looks like this, and an alef in cursive looks like this ..." but  
they are all Alefs. In Unicode, it is all handled as an Alef. Unicode  
isn't concerned with the display. It is just wanting to know which  
character is being represented. I think we should handle it the same  
way.

That is my perspective. :-)  For what its worth ...

Stuart

On 17 Nov 2007, at 21:10 , Valerie Sutton wrote:

> Hello Stuart -
> Actually there is a way to write the finger tight against the square  
> for the fist, but because people seemed to be able to read the A  
> hand with the relaxed diagonal finger, we didn't bother to require  
> that...If the A hand as it is right now, is being read by people,  
> even if it is a relaxed version, then the correct meaning is still  
> coming across...just as a, b and c are pronounced a little bit  
> differently depending on the regional dialects etc...and a, b and c  
> are not writing everything truly accurately with the sound...
>
> I guess it all depends on how much we want a perfect movement- 
> writing of a symbol, versus knowledge of the language in advance...
>
> So there are not two meanings for diagonal finger lines...they mean  
> exactly that the finger is at a diagonal, and we were simply writing  
> a relaxed A rather than requiring that it be written tight against  
> the fist...this came about partly because with the old printers, the  
> thumb line blurred with the square if the line was too close to the  
> square so for printing reasons we needed a little space between the  
> line and the square so the ink would not blur! Modern printers are  
> better, but that is the history of that symbol...
>
> I do not have the time right now to do that diagram for you, but it  
> is coming tomorrow morning! I can show you what I mean...
>
> And no worries everyone...all is well and you are all welcome to  
> write as you choose -
>
> As you know, the Parkhurst book also changed other symbols...such as  
> the circles, and although I understand fully why they did it, to  
> this day it has caused me a lot of work, and I personally feel that  
> the old circles were working too...so you can see that changes are  
> made sometimes that i never wanted myself...and once they are made,  
> we do have to make choices among the variations...To sort well by  
> SSS we need just one choice for each symbol, so the sorting is  
> accurate...That is why the ISWA has to make choices, not because I  
> want to be a dictator...
>
> More tomorrow -
>
> Val ;-)
>
>
>
>
> On Nov 17, 2007, at 3:58 PM, Stuart Thiessen wrote:
>
>> Visually, I think <symbol.php.png> looks more natural, but then it  
>> conflicts in meaning with <symbol.php.png>. Essentially, we have  
>> two meanings for the thumb expressed with this thumb symbol. It can  
>> either mean thumb out or it can mean thumb flush on the side of the  
>> hand. Suppose I did<symbol.php.png> but meant my thumb was flush to  
>> the side of the hand? I wouldn't have a clear way to express that  
>> because of the double meaning. I don't think it matters a whole lot  
>> which symbol is used for what, but I do think that the symbol we  
>> choose should be consistent across the system. So if we want to  
>> keep<symbol.php.png> as far as a visual look, then <symbol.php.png>  
>> should be changed to match <symbol.php.png> or we should change  
>> everything to match <symbol.php.png>.  Either way will work fine. I  
>> think that <symbol.php.png> is the odd one and maybe it needs to  
>> solved with a different kind of thumb symbol that means flush to  
>> the side.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Stuart
>>
>> On 17 Nov 2007, at 17:38 , Valerie Sutton wrote:
>>
>>> SignWriting List
>>> November 17, 2007
>>>
>>> On Nov 17, 2007, at 3:08 PM, Stuart Thiessen wrote:
>>>> One other possible inconsistency ... There is also the one odd  
>>>> instance like the handshape for the ASL "A" which has the thumb  
>>>> "out" but it really means the thumb flush to the side of the  
>>>> hand. That is another inconsistency that occurs with the thumb in  
>>>> the "relaxed" position.
>>>>
>>>> I personally think it is a good idea to keep symbols having a  
>>>> consistent meaning because it makes it easier to learn the  
>>>> system. Once you see a finger symbol used in one place, you can  
>>>> assume it has the same meaning on other handshapes. Now is a good  
>>>> time to make those types of consistency changes with the  
>>>> publication of the ISWA. I know it means a lot of work on this  
>>>> side of things, but I think it would mean less work on the other  
>>>> side of things.
>>>>
>>>> If the straight line means thumb out to the side, then maybe the  
>>>> thumb as it is in the ASL "A" handshape can be used to say thumb  
>>>> flush to the side of the fist?
>>>
>>>
>>> So you would choose the Parkhurst thumbs for "to the side" but  
>>> keep the A as it is?
>>>
>>> <Picture 10.png>
>>>
>>>
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>>
>>
>>
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