ISWA Thumb Standardization?

Sun Nov 18 03:10:26 UTC 2007

Hello Stuart -
Actually there is a way to write the finger tight against the square  
for the fist, but because people seemed to be able to read the A hand  
with the relaxed diagonal finger, we didn't bother to require  
that...If the A hand as it is right now, is being read by people,  
even if it is a relaxed version, then the correct meaning is still  
coming across...just as a, b and c are pronounced a little bit  
differently depending on the regional dialects etc...and a, b and c  
are not writing everything truly accurately with the sound...

I guess it all depends on how much we want a perfect movement-writing  
of a symbol, versus knowledge of the language in advance...

So there are not two meanings for diagonal finger lines...they mean  
exactly that the finger is at a diagonal, and we were simply writing  
a relaxed A rather than requiring that it be written tight against  
the fist...this came about partly because with the old printers, the  
thumb line blurred with the square if the line was too close to the  
square so for printing reasons we needed a little space between the  
line and the square so the ink would not blur! Modern printers are  
better, but that is the history of that symbol...

I do not have the time right now to do that diagram for you, but it  
is coming tomorrow morning! I can show you what I mean...

And no worries everyone...all is well and you are all welcome to  
write as you choose -

As you know, the Parkhurst book also changed other symbols...such as  
the circles, and although I understand fully why they did it, to this  
day it has caused me a lot of work, and I personally feel that the  
old circles were working too...so you can see that changes are made  
sometimes that i never wanted myself...and once they are made, we do  
have to make choices among the variations...To sort well by SSS we  
need just one choice for each symbol, so the sorting is  
accurate...That is why the ISWA has to make choices, not because I  
want to be a dictator...

More tomorrow -

Val ;-)

On Nov 17, 2007, at 3:58 PM, Stuart Thiessen wrote:

> Visually, I think <symbol.php.png> looks more natural, but then it  
> conflicts in meaning with <symbol.php.png>. Essentially, we have  
> two meanings for the thumb expressed with this thumb symbol. It can  
> either mean thumb out or it can mean thumb flush on the side of the  
> hand. Suppose I did<symbol.php.png> but meant my thumb was flush to  
> the side of the hand? I wouldn't have a clear way to express that  
> because of the double meaning. I don't think it matters a whole lot  
> which symbol is used for what, but I do think that the symbol we  
> choose should be consistent across the system. So if we want to  
> keep<symbol.php.png> as far as a visual look, then <symbol.php.png>  
> should be changed to match <symbol.php.png> or we should change  
> everything to match <symbol.php.png>.  Either way will work fine. I  
> think that <symbol.php.png> is the odd one and maybe it needs to  
> solved with a different kind of thumb symbol that means flush to  
> the side.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Stuart
>
> On 17 Nov 2007, at 17:38 , Valerie Sutton wrote:
>
>> SignWriting List
>> November 17, 2007
>>
>> On Nov 17, 2007, at 3:08 PM, Stuart Thiessen wrote:
>>> One other possible inconsistency ... There is also the one odd  
>>> instance like the handshape for the ASL "A" which has the thumb  
>>> "out" but it really means the thumb flush to the side of the  
>>> hand. That is another inconsistency that occurs with the thumb in  
>>> the "relaxed" position.
>>>
>>> I personally think it is a good idea to keep symbols having a  
>>> consistent meaning because it makes it easier to learn the  
>>> system. Once you see a finger symbol used in one place, you can  
>>> assume it has the same meaning on other handshapes. Now is a good  
>>> time to make those types of consistency changes with the  
>>> publication of the ISWA. I know it means a lot of work on this  
>>> side of things, but I think it would mean less work on the other  
>>> side of things.
>>>
>>> If the straight line means thumb out to the side, then maybe the  
>>> thumb as it is in the ASL "A" handshape can be used to say thumb  
>>> flush to the side of the fist?
>>
>>
>> So you would choose the Parkhurst thumbs for "to the side" but  
>> keep the A as it is?
>>
>> <Picture 10.png>
>>
>>
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