Sign Spelling Syllables question
Jonathan
duncanjonathan at YAHOO.CA
Fri May 16 18:47:42 UTC 2008
Hi Val,
I agree with you and Charles too. Hasna, may I suggest that you use
whole signs and look at the context to get meaning. As a sign in one
context can convey one idea but yet the same sign in another context can
mean something quite different.
Jonathan
Valerie Sutton wrote:
> SignWriting List
> May 15, 2008
>
> Hello Hasna and Charles -
> Many thanks for your input, Charles...we are thinking the same ;-)
>
> Hasna - regarding programming versus the "real world of
> signing"...there is no question they are two different worlds, and of
> course it is hard to imagine translating between a spoken language
> like French or English, which uses the Roman alphabet that is written
> horizontally in a string from left to right, and compare that with a
> writing system like SignWriting, that is written in visual
> clusters...NOT written in a string...we do not write like the
> SignSpellings look...one symbol after the other...we write in
> two-dimensional relationships because those relationships, of the
> hands under the head, and so forth...those clusters of symbols in
> proper alignment with the human body...those "symbol relationships"
> hold meaning to us in a way that the symbols from left to right could
> never do...
>
> For example, if a sign is done over the head, it can mean one thing,
> and if the sign is produced under the head, it could mean something
> else, so the visual placement is important for meaning.
>
> So just placing symbols in a string doesn't give you the feeling or
> the meaning of signs...
>
> That is the very reason why SignWriting works...because we don't write
> "symbols in a line in sequence"...
>
> I realize this is no help to your project, and we can continue
> discussing this...I can continue the discussion later tomorrow as I
> have appointments all day today...
>
> Val ;-)
>
> --------
>
> Hasna Hocini wrote:
>> Thank you very much for your answers and interest to help me...
>> We are working on statistical translation.
>> The problem now is to find a compact representation of signs,
>> because if we use the two dimensional representations of signs (As it
>> is in SWML: symbol code, position x,y ), it will not work and the
>> results of our statistical translation system will not be satisfying.
>> So, we'll use the SignSpelling representation. If we can have the
>> syllables also, It will improve the codification. We will have for
>> example for the second syllable (Mvt syllable) less signs so we will
>> not need to codify that on 13 positions as it is in SSS-2004 but two
>> positions will be enough (177 movements symbols -> using the alphabet
>> to codify them, two positions it will enough 26*26 =676).
>> Do you think I can do it in a different way?
>> Thanks a lot,
>> Hasna
>>
>>
>> --------------
>>
>>
>>
>> */Charles Butler <chazzer3332000 at yahoo.com
>> <mailto:chazzer3332000 at yahoo.com>>/* a écrit :
>>
>> I would agree. Think of a sign as a whole concept, like Chinese,
>> you are not translating stroke for stroke, you are translating a
>> whole sign into a whole concept.
>>
>> The sign spelling helps one look up two signs in a dictionary by
>> how they are produced, not by their meaning, just like ANGRY and
>> APPLE can be looked up in the dictionary by spelling, not by
>> meaning.
>>
>> In ASL, the ANGRY hand would be a 5-claw hand at the chest, APPLE
>> would be a A-hand at the corner of the mouth. They would sort by
>> their handshapes first, but that has nothing to do with their
>> meaning.
>>
>> */Valerie Sutton <sutton at signwriting.org
>> <mailto:sutton at signwriting.org>>/* wrote:
>>
>> SignWriting List
>> May 15, 2008
>>
>> Hasna Hocini wrote:
>> > 1- If I ask two signers to sign the word "Interesting".
>> Will they do
>> > it the same way?
>> > What are the differences they will introduce ?
>>
>> Hello Hasna and everyone -
>>
>> Your work with translation from signwritten signs, into spoken
>> language, is a big job but a fascinating subject...thank you for
>> sharing your project with us ;-)
>>
>> 1. There are several signs for the concept of INTERESTING, in
>> American
>> Sign Language...Just like in other spoken languages, there are
>> oftentimes several words you could use for one concept...
>>
>> Here are three writings of the sign for INTERESTING in the ASL
>> SignPuddle Dictionary, to give you an example....and there
>> may be more
>> variations and signs that could be equivalent as well...
>>
>> The important thing to realize is that this has nothing to do
>> with
>> syllables. I cannot see how syllables have anything to do with
>> translation, since the "whole word" or "whole sign" carries the
>> meanings...the syllables do not have meanings... In this
>> attached
>> diagram, you can see the SignSpellings to the right of the
>> signs (the
>> tiny grey symbols in little boxes)...those are only for
>> sorting the
>> dictionary by symbols and not the way we actually write the
>> signs...The fact that the SignSpellings can be divided into
>> syllables
>> is not important for sorting dictionaries...
>>
>> Looking at the three attached signs...
>>
>> 1. two-handed sign
>> 2. same sign as 1, but one-handed
>> 3. different sign that can also mean fascinating
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>
>
> Val ;-)
>
>
>
> Valerie Sutton
> Sutton at SignWriting.org <mailto:Sutton at SignWriting.org>
>
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>
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