Sign Spelling Syllables question

Jonathan duncanjonathan at YAHOO.CA
Fri May 16 19:01:49 UTC 2008 

Hi Stuart,
    I agree with you here too.  The interpretation of the meaning and 
the interaction of the symbols in the SignWriting are fully up to the 
reader to interpret. The way the signwriting is currently saved, a 
computer would have a REALLY hard time guessing which symbols go 
together.  e.i.  Which symbol goes with which arrow as this information 
isn't yet part of the information that is being inputed or stored with 
the sign.

Jonathan

Stuart Thiessen wrote:
> On the contrary, SW most likely can be reduced to a linear representation. But that representation would not be human readable, or at least not easily human readable.
>
> Admittedly, the challenge is that there are relationships being expressed in the 2D arrangements that would need some kind of explicit notation in a linear string. The build string that Steve uses is one type of linear representation of SW.
>
> But I don't think it is possible to "code as a cluster" without the computer understanding the components. The computer needs a better intelligence behind its interpretation of component symbols so that it can gather relevant linguistic data from facial expressions, use of space, etc.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Stuart
> --------------------
> Stuart Thiessen
> Voice: 800-919-8853
> SVP-Home: 515-633-8774
> Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "Charles Butler" <chazzer3332000 at yahoo.com>
>
> Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 11:08:06 
> To:"SignWriting List" <sw-l at majordomo.valenciacc.edu>
> Subject: Re: [sw-l] Sign Spelling Syllables question
>
>
> Dear Hasna,
>
> I would have to underline the differences between, for example, Stokoe notation, which is based on single-string notation and Sign Writing which is based on x,y notation.  Sign Writing cannot be reduced to single-string notation because its very nature is 2-dimensional, not one-dimensional. 
>
> Stokoe deliberately made his writing from symbols that can be found on a keyboard, in a fixed order, but for that reason it is not iconographic, it is not a sign-recognition system, but an encoding.
>
> I can show the sign "THANK YOU" as a string of symbols that translates as "right flat hand touches mouth and then moves out pronately forward from the speaker" but with SW it's quick, simple, and must less complicated.  
>
> If you are to do your translation system, you will need to find a way to code "as a cluster" the whole graphic which is a complete sign, not its components.
>
> The sign-spelling will help you find which handshapes, or which movements, are being used, but not their "whole cluster" which is a sign, in which all parts of the sign are being articulated simultaneously. 
>
> Charles
>
>
>
>
> Valerie Sutton <sutton at signwriting.org> wrote: SignWriting List
> May 15, 2008
>
>
> Hello Hasna and Charles -
> Many thanks for your input, Charles...we are thinking the same ;-)
>
>
> Hasna - regarding programming versus the "real world of signing"...there is no question they are two different worlds, and of course it is hard to imagine translating between a spoken language like French or English, which uses the Roman alphabet that is written horizontally in a string from left to right, and compare that with a writing system like SignWriting, that is written in visual clusters...NOT written in a string...we do not write like the SignSpellings look...one symbol after the other...we write in two-dimensional relationships because those relationships, of the hands under the head, and so forth...those clusters of symbols in proper alignment with the human body...those "symbol relationships" hold meaning to us in a way that the symbols from left to right could never do...
>
>
> For example, if a sign is done over the head, it can mean one thing, and if the sign is produced under the head, it could mean something else, so the visual placement is important for meaning.
>
>
> So just placing symbols in a string doesn't give you the feeling or the meaning of signs...
>
>
> That is the very reason why SignWriting works...because we don't write "symbols in a line in sequence"...
>
>
> I realize this is no help to your project, and we can continue discussing this...I can continue the discussion later tomorrow as I have appointments all day today...
>
>
> Val ;-)
>
>
> --------
>
>
>
> Hasna Hocini wrote:Thank you very much for your answers and intterest to help me...
> We are working on statistical translation. 
> The problem now is to find a compact representation  of signs, because if we use the two dimensional representations of signs (As it is in SWML: symbol code, position x,y ), it will not work and the results of our statistical translation system will not be satisfying.
> So, we'll use the SignSpelling representation. If we can have the syllables also, It will improve the codification. We will have for example for the second syllable (Mvt syllable) less signs so we will not need to codify that on 13 positions as it is in SSS-2004 but two positions will be enough (177 movements symbols -> using the alphabet to codify them, two positions it will enough 26*26 =676).
> Do you think I can do it in a different way?
> Thanks a lot,
> Hasna
>
>
> --------------
>
>
>
> Charles Butler <chazzer3332000 at yahoo.com <mailto:chazzer3332000 at yahoo.com> &> a écrit : I would agree.  Think of a sign as a whole concept, like Chinese, you are not translating stroke for stroke, you are translating a whole sign into a whole concept.  
>
> The sign spelling helps one look up two signs in a dictionary by how they are produced, not by their meaning, just like ANGRY and APPLE can be looked up in the dictionary by spelling, not by meaning.  
>
> In ASL, the ANGRY hand would be a 5-claw hand at the chest, APPLE would be a A-hand at the corner of the mouth.  They would sort by their handshapes first, but that has nothing to do with their meaning.
>
> Valerie Sutton <sutton at signwriting.org <mailto:sutton at signwriting.org> > wrote: SignWriting List
> May 15, 2008
>
> Hasna Hocini wrote:
>   
>> 1- If I ask two signers to sign the word "Interesting". Will they do 
>> it the same way?
>> What are the differences they will introduce ?
>>     
>
> Hello Hasna and everyone -
>
> Your work with translation from signwritten signs, into spoken 
> language, is a big job but a fascinating subject...thank you for 
> sharing your project with us ;-)
>
> 1. There are several signs for the concept of INTERESTING, in American 
> Sign Language...Just like in other spoken languages, there are 
> oftentimes several words you could use for one concept...
>
> Here are three writings of the sign for INTERESTING in the ASL 
> SignPuddle Dictionary, to give you an example....and there may be more 
> variations and signs that could be equivalent as well...
>
> The important thing to realize is that this has nothing to do with 
> syllables. I cannot see how syllables have anything to do with 
> translation, since the "whole word" or "whole sign" carries the 
> meanings...the syllables do not have meanings... In this attached 
> diagram, you can see the SignSpellings to the right of the signs (the 
> tiny grey symbols in little boxes)...those are only for sorting the 
> dictionary by symbols and not the way we actually write the 
> signs...The fact that the SignSpellings can be divided into syllables 
> is not important for sorting dictionaries...
>
> Looking at the three attached signs...
>
> 1. two-handed sign
> 2. same sign as 1, but one-handed
> 3. different sign that can also mean fascinating
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>  
>
>
> Val ;-)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Valerie Sutton
> Sutton at SignWriting.org <mailto:Sutton at SignWriting.org> 
>
>
> 1. SignWriting
> Read & Write Sign Languages
> http://www.SignWriting.org <http://www.SignWriting.org> 
>
>
> 2. SignPuddle
> Create SignWriting Documents Online
> http://www.SignBank.org/signpuddle <http://www.SignBank.org/signpuddle> 
>
>
> 3. SignBank
> SignWriting Desktop Databases
> http://www.SignBank.org <http://www.SignBank.org> 
>
>
> 4. SignWriting List
> Technical Support: Ask questions to the List 
> http://www.SignWriting.org/forums/swlist <http://www.SignWriting.org/forums/swlist> 
>
>
> 5. SignWriting Literature Project
> Writing Literature in Sign Languages
> http://www.SignWriting.org/literature <http://www.SignWriting.org/literature> 
>
>
> Deaf Action Committee For SignWriting
> Center For Sutton Movement Writing
> an educational nonprofit organization
> P.O. Box 517, La Jolla, CA, 92038, USA
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