AW: [sw-l] How many symbols do we use in SignWriting? Part 1

Tue Aug 18 16:36:01 UTC 2009

Hi Charles, Valerie ... friends, 

I am reading your discussion with great interest. 

I bet there is a dozen of other frequently asked questions we are confronted
with depending how interested or sceptic the person is who is asking. 

Some of these questions seem to express the idea "I am sure that this is
much to complicated"

How many symbols? How many hand shapes? How many symbols for different eye
brows? ... 

What is the idea behind these questions if you get a list of numbers? Do we
count the 96 options of the index hand shape as 96 symbols? 

I bet people are more interested in answers that allow them to start to get
interested and confident that it is worth it ... 

Asked myself the question "How many symbols ..." I prefer to answer that
there are enough to express what I need to express but far more than I
really need for my purpose to write DGS documents... 

Stefan ;)

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: sw-l-bounces at majordomo.valenciacc.edu
[mailto:sw-l-bounces at majordomo.valenciacc.edu] Im Auftrag von SignWriting
Gesendet: Dienstag, 18. August 2009 18:16
An: SignWriting List
Cc: MARIA AZZOPARDI
Betreff: Re: [sw-l] How many symbols do we use in SignWriting? Part 1

SignWriting List
August 18, 2009

Hello Maria and Charles!
Thank you for your messages. I can see you are an excellent teacher,  
Charles. Everyone has their own style of teaching. So that is fine!

I am just sharing how I start the explanation about numbers of  
symbols...

I have not finished my explanation yet...I will now write Part 2 of my  
explanation, but it may take another hour, so I ask for your patience...

In Part 1 I explained my short answer, and obviously people  
immediately ask me about the categories and I explain them...when I  
personally teach people about things, it takes long paragraphs of  
explanation...I was just giving you a summary of how I personally  
start the topic of symbols...for people who have never heard of  
SignWriting before...I oftentimes then discuss other writing system  
that are not like the Roman alphabet...for example although I don't  
know Chinese, I would ask someone in the audience or the class if they  
know how many symbols are in Chinese? and they oftentimes would not  
know but people enjoy these conversations...and breaking the symbols  
down into categories is a good way to start a conversation...!

Without the 28 category explanation, it is hard for people to grasp  
how people learn SignWriting. They are frightened that they have to  
"memorize" 25,000 symbols or whatever the large number is...and so I  
also explain that the symbols are very visual, and do not require the  
same kind of memorization that more abstract symbols do...like the  
facial expressions, for example, are symbols, but many of them are  
recognizable and do not require memorization.

You are most welcome to continue to teach your way...we all have our  
right to teach as we wish!

How did you come to the conclusion that there are 25,000 symbols? How  
do you define the term "symbol"?... and which sign language are you  
referring to? I am writing Part 2 now, and I explain how I personally  
break the symbols down into something I call "BaseSymbols"...so that  
is coming. I need to get a cup of coffee and relax a little, and I  
will then write and post Part 2...

Thanks for your messages!

Val ;-)

--------

On Aug 18, 2009, at 8:58 AM, Charles Butler wrote:

> 10 groups of handshapes, knocking down to 7 groups of symbols, by  
> category.
>
> And yet, that is misleading Valerie.  They asked "how many symbols  
> do we use" not "how many categories do we use".  You are comparing  
> apples to oranges to bypass the question.
>
> The question is -- flat out -- how many symbols do you use in Sign  
> Writing.  That is distinct symbols, not rotations, not reflections.
>
> She asked a question, and you give her a misleading answer.
>
> English uses 26 letters, plus 10 number symbols, plus about 30  
> symbols on the keyboard that are used for specialized diacritics.   
> Cyrillic uses about 35 letters.  Cherokee is a syllabary with over  
> 60, Chinese has more than 8,000 distinct characters.
>
> The count of 25,000 is approximately accurate as far as every symbol  
> in the ISWA corpus including rotations and reflections.
>
> I don't like bypassed answers, answer her question, how many  
> distinct symbols are there in ISWA?
>
> Charles
>
>
>
> --- On Tue, 8/18/09, Valerie Sutton <sutton at signwriting.org> wrote:
>
> From: Valerie Sutton <sutton at signwriting.org>
> Subject: Re: [sw-l] How many symbols do we use in SignWriting? Part 1
> To: "SignWriting List" <sw-l at majordomo.valenciacc.edu>
> Cc: "MARIA AZZOPARDI" <maria.azzopardi at um.edu.mt>
> Date: Tuesday, August 18, 2009, 11:44 AM
>
> SignWriting List
> August 18, 2009
>
> On Aug 18, 2009, at 8:09 AM, Valerie Sutton wrote:
> > First, in Part 1, I will discuss how I personally answer the  
> question, when I am teaching people who are new to SignWriting and  
> the ISWA...
>
> Part 1...How do I answer the question: "How many symbols do we write  
> with, in SignWriting?".
>
> My short answer:
> We SPELL signs with 28 groups of symbols. There are 10 groups of  
> handshapes, 10 groups of movement symbols, 5 groups for the face and  
> head, and 3 groups for torso, body and timing. When we write  
> sentences and literature, we add another group of punctuation symbols.
>
> So when people say that English spells with 26 letters, I say:
>
> "SignWriting spells with 28 groups of symbols."
>
>
> Another longer answer:
>
> 1.. The International SignWriting Alphabet (the ISWA) has 7  
> categories of symbols:
>
> ISWA 2008
> Category 1: Hands
> Category 2: Movement
> Category 3: Face Head
> Category 4: Body
> Category 5: Dynamics
> Category 6: Punctuation
> Category 7: Advanced Sorting (for computer programming of sorting)
>
> 2. We SPELL individual signs with 5 categories:
>
> Category 1: Hands
> Category 2: Movement
> Category 3: Face Head
> Category 4: Body
> Category 5: Dynamics
>
> 3. We write SENTENCES with added Punctuation, so that makes 6  
> categories:
>
> Category 1: Hands
> Category 2: Movement
> Category 3: Face Head
> Category 4: Body
> Category 5: Dynamics
> Category 6: Punctuation
>
> 4. We NEVER write with Category 7. It is only for computer  
> programming of dictionary-sorting.
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________
>
> SW-L SignWriting List
>
> Post Message
> SW-L at majordomo.valenciacc.edu
>
> List Archives and Help
> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist/
>
> Change Email Settings
> http://majordomo.valenciacc.edu/mailman/listinfo/sw-l
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________
>
> SW-L SignWriting List
>
> Post Message
> SW-L at majordomo.valenciacc.edu
>
> List Archives and Help
> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist/
>
> Change Email Settings
> http://majordomo.valenciacc.edu/mailman/listinfo/sw-l

____________________________________________

SW-L SignWriting List

Post Message
SW-L at majordomo.valenciacc.edu

List Archives and Help
http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist/

Change Email Settings
http://majordomo.valenciacc.edu/mailman/listinfo/sw-l

____________________________________________

SW-L SignWriting List

Post Message
SW-L at majordomo.valenciacc.edu

List Archives and Help
http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist/

Change Email Settings
http://majordomo.valenciacc.edu/mailman/listinfo/sw-l