AW: [sw-l] How many symbols do we use in SignWriting? Part 1

Tue Aug 18 17:10:55 UTC 2009

SignWriting List
August 18, 2009

Hello Stefan, Maria, Charles and everyone!

I love your last paragraph in your message below, Stefan ;-))

Yes...SignWriting has enough symbols to express ourselves in writing  
signs, but far more than you really need to write your one sign  
language, German Sign Language )DGS).

As you know, that is because the International SignWriting Alphabet  
(ISWA) has symbols in it, for writing around 40 different sign  
languages, so each individual sign language uses a smaller portion of  
the ISWA symbolset. Someday we will be offering the symbols specified  
for each individual sign language, but we have not done that yet.  
Instead, Steve has built into the SignPuddle software, and the  
SignWriting Image Server, ways to determine how many symbols we have  
in the entire ISWA, and also which symbols have been used to write  
each sign language, so it is becoming easier to determine how many  
symbols are needed to write each individual sign language.

And Maria, in Malta, is writing her dissertation on trying to  
determine how many symbols are really needed to write just one sign  
language: Maltese Sign Language. And in my Part 2 message, I will try  
to give Maria and all of us, a perspective on the software that can  
help us pin this number down, plus other issues that surround this  
process...

Thanks so much for your participation in this discussion...I think it  
is an important one...that is why I wanted to open the discussion to  
the List...thank you, Maria and everyone...

Val ;-)

---------

On Aug 18, 2009, at 9:36 AM, Stefan Wöhrmann wrote:

> Hi Charles, Valerie ... friends,
>
> I am reading your discussion with great interest.
>
> I bet there is a dozen of other frequently asked questions we are  
> confronted
> with depending how interested or sceptic the person is who is asking.
>
> Some of these questions seem to express the idea "I am sure that  
> this is
> much to complicated"
>
> How many symbols? How many hand shapes? How many symbols for  
> different eye
> brows? ...
>
> What is the idea behind these questions if you get a list of  
> numbers? Do we
> count the 96 options of the index hand shape as 96 symbols?
>
> I bet people are more interested in answers that allow them to start  
> to get
> interested and confident that it is worth it ...
>
> Asked myself the question "How many symbols ..." I prefer to answer  
> that
> there are enough to express what I need to express but far more than I
> really need for my purpose to write DGS documents...
>
> Stefan ;)
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: sw-l-bounces at majordomo.valenciacc.edu
> [mailto:sw-l-bounces at majordomo.valenciacc.edu] Im Auftrag von  
> SignWriting
> Gesendet: Dienstag, 18. August 2009 18:16
> An: SignWriting List
> Cc: MARIA AZZOPARDI
> Betreff: Re: [sw-l] How many symbols do we use in SignWriting? Part 1
>
> SignWriting List
> August 18, 2009
>
> Hello Maria and Charles!
> Thank you for your messages. I can see you are an excellent teacher,
> Charles. Everyone has their own style of teaching. So that is fine!
>
> I am just sharing how I start the explanation about numbers of
> symbols...
>
> I have not finished my explanation yet...I will now write Part 2 of my
> explanation, but it may take another hour, so I ask for your  
> patience...
>
> In Part 1 I explained my short answer, and obviously people
> immediately ask me about the categories and I explain them...when I
> personally teach people about things, it takes long paragraphs of
> explanation...I was just giving you a summary of how I personally
> start the topic of symbols...for people who have never heard of
> SignWriting before...I oftentimes then discuss other writing system
> that are not like the Roman alphabet...for example although I don't
> know Chinese, I would ask someone in the audience or the class if they
> know how many symbols are in Chinese? and they oftentimes would not
> know but people enjoy these conversations...and breaking the symbols
> down into categories is a good way to start a conversation...!
>
> Without the 28 category explanation, it is hard for people to grasp
> how people learn SignWriting. They are frightened that they have to
> "memorize" 25,000 symbols or whatever the large number is...and so I
> also explain that the symbols are very visual, and do not require the
> same kind of memorization that more abstract symbols do...like the
> facial expressions, for example, are symbols, but many of them are
> recognizable and do not require memorization.
>
> You are most welcome to continue to teach your way...we all have our
> right to teach as we wish!
>
> How did you come to the conclusion that there are 25,000 symbols? How
> do you define the term "symbol"?... and which sign language are you
> referring to? I am writing Part 2 now, and I explain how I personally
> break the symbols down into something I call "BaseSymbols"...so that
> is coming. I need to get a cup of coffee and relax a little, and I
> will then write and post Part 2...
>
> Thanks for your messages!
>
> Val ;-)
>
> --------
>
>
>
>
> On Aug 18, 2009, at 8:58 AM, Charles Butler wrote:
>
>> 10 groups of handshapes, knocking down to 7 groups of symbols, by
>> category.
>>
>> And yet, that is misleading Valerie.  They asked "how many symbols
>> do we use" not "how many categories do we use".  You are comparing
>> apples to oranges to bypass the question.
>>
>> The question is -- flat out -- how many symbols do you use in Sign
>> Writing.  That is distinct symbols, not rotations, not reflections.
>>
>> She asked a question, and you give her a misleading answer.
>>
>> English uses 26 letters, plus 10 number symbols, plus about 30
>> symbols on the keyboard that are used for specialized diacritics.
>> Cyrillic uses about 35 letters.  Cherokee is a syllabary with over
>> 60, Chinese has more than 8,000 distinct characters.
>>
>> The count of 25,000 is approximately accurate as far as every symbol
>> in the ISWA corpus including rotations and reflections.
>>
>> I don't like bypassed answers, answer her question, how many
>> distinct symbols are there in ISWA?
>>
>> Charles
>>
>>
>>
>> --- On Tue, 8/18/09, Valerie Sutton <sutton at signwriting.org> wrote:
>>
>> From: Valerie Sutton <sutton at signwriting.org>
>> Subject: Re: [sw-l] How many symbols do we use in SignWriting? Part 1
>> To: "SignWriting List" <sw-l at majordomo.valenciacc.edu>
>> Cc: "MARIA AZZOPARDI" <maria.azzopardi at um.edu.mt>
>> Date: Tuesday, August 18, 2009, 11:44 AM
>>
>> SignWriting List
>> August 18, 2009
>>
>> On Aug 18, 2009, at 8:09 AM, Valerie Sutton wrote:
>>> First, in Part 1, I will discuss how I personally answer the
>> question, when I am teaching people who are new to SignWriting and
>> the ISWA...
>>
>> Part 1...How do I answer the question: "How many symbols do we write
>> with, in SignWriting?".
>>
>> My short answer:
>> We SPELL signs with 28 groups of symbols. There are 10 groups of
>> handshapes, 10 groups of movement symbols, 5 groups for the face and
>> head, and 3 groups for torso, body and timing. When we write
>> sentences and literature, we add another group of punctuation  
>> symbols.
>>
>> So when people say that English spells with 26 letters, I say:
>>
>> "SignWriting spells with 28 groups of symbols."
>>
>>
>> Another longer answer:
>>
>> 1.. The International SignWriting Alphabet (the ISWA) has 7
>> categories of symbols:
>>
>> ISWA 2008
>> Category 1: Hands
>> Category 2: Movement
>> Category 3: Face Head
>> Category 4: Body
>> Category 5: Dynamics
>> Category 6: Punctuation
>> Category 7: Advanced Sorting (for computer programming of sorting)
>>
>> 2. We SPELL individual signs with 5 categories:
>>
>> Category 1: Hands
>> Category 2: Movement
>> Category 3: Face Head
>> Category 4: Body
>> Category 5: Dynamics
>>
>> 3. We write SENTENCES with added Punctuation, so that makes 6
>> categories:
>>
>> Category 1: Hands
>> Category 2: Movement
>> Category 3: Face Head
>> Category 4: Body
>> Category 5: Dynamics
>> Category 6: Punctuation
>>
>> 4. We NEVER write with Category 7. It is only for computer
>> programming of dictionary-sorting.
>>
>>
>>
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