Ordering Signs
Charles Butler
chazzer3332000 at YAHOO.COM
Wed Dec 2 02:50:00 UTC 2009
This is a fascinating discussion. I can understand that one needs to have a clear test group, like the kids, and finding a way to show them where each handshape fits into the system at a glance is necessary. One needs to show the whole of Group 1, etc, not just the first handshape in a group, but then have an order to them, which is still under discussion.
Charles
________________________________
From: Gagnon et Thibeault <atg at videotron.ca>
To: SignWriting List <sw-l at majordomo.valenciacc.edu>
Sent: Tue, December 1, 2009 9:27:58 PM
Subject: Re: [sw-l] Ordering Signs
Hi Trevor and
everyone,
You are right that handshape would be
more important than location. I thought that Charles wanted to discuss
about a "specific head". (he wrote: The first-four entries seem to be by head,
is that intentional?) I showed him the attached specific head
orders. I answered him: you are right. However, I
misunderstood.
I would like to inform you that it is
not easy to find the primary handshape. Deaf children couldn't remember
everything about the primary handshape 1- 10. For example, in what group
of the primary handshape do you find IDEA (ASL)? Deaf children had to
check each primary handshape 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6. They found group 6. They
didn't like to look for IDEA for a long time. I tried to help them find
the primary handshape quickly on the first front page in the dictionary.
You will see the attached group 1-6.
They were happy to look at the
first front page. They quickly went to Group 6 "thumb &
small finger".
Regards,
André
----- Original Message -----
>From: Trevor
> Jenkins
>To: SignWriting List
>Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 2009 1:03
> PM
>Subject: Re: [sw-l] Ordering Signs
>
>Isn't the primacy of location an influence taken from Stokoe
> notation with the region of the signing space being location signified first
> before hand-shape, movement or orientation. Because of "degrees of meaning" it
> is permissible to retain the meaning of a sign while placing it elsewhere in
> the signing space. So like you, Charles, I'd go with handshape as the primary
> indexer for a dictionary. Handshape would be more important than
> location. I'd likent location as the primary indexer as equivalent to
> organising an English dictionary by upper case letters first then lower
> case.
>
>
>On Tue, Dec 1, 2009 at 5:10 PM, Charles Butler <chazzer3332000 at yahoo.com> > wrote:
>
>I am still confused. I understand your going with Location first,
>> I tend to go with handshape first, which would put anything with an index
>> finger together, with neutral space first, then starting from the head down,
>> that's the only apparent difference. Neutral or hand contact seems to
>> happen much more in ASL than LSQ.
>>
>>Charles
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
________________________________
From: Gagnon et Thibeault
>> <atg at videotron.ca>
>>
>>
>>To: >> SignWriting List <sw-l at majordomo.valenciacc.edu>
>>Sent: Tue, December 1, 2009 11:47:27 AM
>>
>>
>>Subject: Re:
>> [sw-l] Ordering Signs
>>
>>
>>
>>Hi Charles and
>> everyone,
>>
>> Charles,
>> you are right. You will see the attached "head"
>> orders.
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>>
>> André
>>-----
>>> Original Message -----
>>>From: Charles Butler
>>>To: SignWriting List
>>>Sent: >>> Monday, November 30, 2009 1:02 PM
>>>Subject: >>> Re: [sw-l] Ordering Signs
>>>
>>>
>>>I'm not sure how to read your dictionary, Andre,
>>>
>>>The first
>>> four entries seem to be by head. Is that intentional? I was
>>> trying to follow your logic and compare it to what I had proposed and
>>> using handshape as the first entry, and then location, the first four
>>> signs would follow differently. The way you placed the BSL sign
>>> language I agree with, I'm just trying to understand your
>>> system.
>>>
>>>Charles Butler
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
________________________________
From: Valerie Sutton <sutton at signwriting.org>
>>>To: SignWriting List <sw-l at majordomo.valenciacc.edu>
>>>Sent: Mon, November 30, 2009 12:23:21
>>> PM
>>>Subject: Re: [sw-l]
>>> Ordering Signs
>>>
>>>SignWriting List
>>>November 30,
>>> 2009
>>>
>>>Hello Andre!
>>>I feel soooo happy to receive this message
>>> from you. What a remarkable message this is. Very few people in the
>>> history of SignWriting can provide information on testing how Deaf
>>> children look up signs, by Sign Symbols, in dictionaries written in
>>> SignWriting. That is because very few people have classrooms of Deaf
>>> children fluent in SignWriting, and your classroom in French-Canada, using
>>> LSQ, is one of those historic places, that we can point to, when
>>> discussing the theories on sign-symbol-searches.
>>>
>>>Of course there
>>> are classrooms around the world using SignWriting...Stefan Woehrmann's
>>> classroom in Germany, for example, and classrooms in Nicaragua and Belgium
>>> and Brazil and other countries...and they are all doing wonderful
>>> work...
>>>
>>>Have any other teachers tested how Deaf children look up
>>> signs in dictionaries without using any spoken language? Just searching
>>> for signs sorted by Sign-Symbol-Sequence (alphabetical order of
>>> SignWriting symbols)? If so, please tell us how it worked for your
>>> students...
>>>
>>>I am hoping to start, at the end of 2010, to improve
>>> our printed dictionaries...and then distribute the printed dictionaries to
>>> groups of signers to see if they can find signs in those printed
>>> dictionaries, sorted by Sign-Symbols...but that project hasn't started
>>> yet...
>>>
>>>I can see, Andre, that you have already started such a
>>> project and I am very interested to read your results...I will save this
>>> message to refer to later...and THANK YOU for sharing with
>>> us...
>>>
>>>What excites me the most, is that you have found that it is
>>> beneficial for your Deaf students, to use SignWriting in dictionaries.
>>> That is meaningful, to know that SignWriting is making a difference in
>>> people's lives...If it can help some Deaf children to learn how to use
>>> dictionaries, that is wonderful.
>>>
>>>Out of the 13 different handshapes
>>> listed in Group 1 of the ISWA, LSQ (Quebec Sign Language) only uses 5 out
>>> of the 13 handshapes...The International SignWriting Alphabet was never
>>> meant to be used in its entirety by all sign languages...We all assume
>>> that each sign language will only use some of the symbols in the ISWA,
>>> just as the full IPA is not used to write this message in
>>> English...
>>>
>>>So I look forward to learning more about your project,
>>> Andre -
>>>
>>>Thanks again for your sharing with us -
>>>
>>>Val
>>> ;-)
>>>
>>>--------------------
>>>
>>>On Nov 29, 2009, at 3:50 AM, Gagnon
>>> et Thibeault wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Trevor, Charles, Gerard, Christophe,
>>> and everyone
>>>>
>>>> A Deaf teacher and I have been
>>> working on a Sign Writing LSQ (a written LSQ) dictionary for one month
>>> now. The Deaf teacher has been testing if Deaf children are able to
>>> look up SW orders without alphabetic orders in the dictionary.
>>>>
>>>
>>>> It seems that it works well because Deaf children
>>> who have difficulties to read a written French can directly find a written
>>> LSQ to help them find a French word in the dictionary.
>>>>
>>>
>>>> Charles mentioned that handshape orders are “index
>>> finger”, “index & middle finger”, “index finger, middle, & thumb”,
>>> “four fingers”, “four fingers & thumb”, “thumb & small finger”,
>>> “thumb & ring finger”, “thumb & index finger”, and “thumb &
>>> fist”. I focus on “Index Finger”. You will see the attached
>>> ISWA. The Index Finger has 13 different handshapes from ISWA in the
>>> world. However, the Index Finger of the LSQ has only 5 different
>>> handshapes.
>>>>
>>>> In addition, you will see the
>>> attached location orders. Location orders have 5 parts: 1) head
>>> & neck, 2) trunk & leg, 3) arm, 4) hand, 5) neutral space.
>>> If you look up a written LSQ in the dictionary, you must think from the
>>> high level of location to the low level of location. Contact symbols which
>>> include touch, hit, rub and so forth interact with a specific area of the
>>> body. If the hand or the finger touches the nose, you look up
>>> quickly a head location order. For example, if a signer produces
>>> BELIEVE (ASL), the index finger touches the middle front: you look up a
>>> “head” location order. Another example, if the signer produces SHOW
>>> (ASL), the index finger of the right hand touches the palm of the left
>>> hand. You look up a hand location order. If the signer produces ONE
>>> (ASL), the index finger is the front of the shoulder without contact
>>> symbols. You look up a last (neutral space) location order.
>>>>
>>>
>>>> You will see the attached SW orders. You will
>>> find a first page. You look up index finger and location orders. EYE
>>> (LSQ) is a highest level of the head than higher level of the head for
>>> TOOTH (LSQ) than a high level of the head for CANDY (LSQ) than a low level
>>> of the head for TO SAY (LSQ).
>>>>
>>>> Trevor, if the
>>> signer who uses a British manual alphabet produces “A” (BSL), the index
>>> finger of the right hand touches the thumb of the left hand (handshape
>>> 5). You look up an index finger order and a hand location order in
>>> the BSL dictionary. If the signer produces “I” (BSL), the index
>>> finger of the right hand touches the tip of the middle finger of the left
>>> hand (handshape 5). You look up an index finger order and a
>>> hand location order. You will see the attached SW orders (page
>>> 21).
>>>>
>>>> We will adjust and test the LSQ
>>> dictionary. We are still working on it. If Trevor, Charles or
>>> everyone takes a (SW) workshop or attends a (SW) conference, we will be
>>> happy to teach him/her how to look up quickly your own sign language in
>>> the dictionary.
>>>>
>>>> Best regards,
>>>>
>>>
>>>> André
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>____________________________________________
>>>
>>>SW-L
>>> SignWriting List
>>>
>>>Post Message
>>>SW-L at majordomo.valenciacc.edu
>>>
>>>List Archives and
>>> Help
>>>http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist/
>>>
>>>Change
>>> Email Settings
>>>http://majordomo.valenciacc.edu/mailman/listinfo/sw-l
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>____________________________________________
>>
>>SW-L
>> SignWriting List
>>
>>Post Message
>>SW-L at majordomo.valenciacc.edu
>>
>>List
>> Archives and Help
>>http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist/
>>
>>Change
>> Email Settings
>>http://majordomo.valenciacc.edu/mailman/listinfo/sw-l
>>
>
>
>--
>Regards, Trevor.
>
><>< Re: deemed!
>
________________________________
>
>
>
>____________________________________________
>
>SW-L
> SignWriting List
>
>Post
> Message
>SW-L at majordomo.valenciacc.edu
>
>List Archives and
> Help
>http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist/
>
>Change Email
> Settings
>http://majordomo.valenciacc.edu/mailman/listinfo/sw-l
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/sw-l/attachments/20091201/c1f06ee4/attachment.htm>
-------------- next part --------------
____________________________________________
SW-L SignWriting List
Post Message
SW-L at majordomo.valenciacc.edu
List Archives and Help
http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist/
Change Email Settings
http://majordomo.valenciacc.edu/mailman/listinfo/sw-l
More information about the Sw-l
mailing list