Nominal vs Cardinal numbers in ASL

Sun Feb 8 23:19:07 UTC 2009

SignWriting List
February 8, 2009

Actually i don't think we ever did a book that only had ASL  
numbers...we always coupled it with the Arabic number on the other  
side of the same page...or just used Arabic numbers alone...

For example, if you download the Goldilocks books, you will see what i  
mean...the ASL number is on one side, and the Arabic number is on the  
other side of the same page...

Goldilocks
http://www.SignWriting.org/library/children/Goldilocks.html

If you liked it once, Adam, and beginning readers are downloading  
these books, maybe it can't hurt to leave the books as they are? I  
have to update them for other reasons anyway, but I would like to  
leave the page numbers in both languages in  these books for historic  
reasons if nothing more...it has brought up interesting discussions ;-)

Val ;-)

---------

On Feb 8, 2009, at 3:07 PM, Adam Frost wrote:

> Well, as Val had mentioned before, books written in SignWriting  
> aren't very commonplace, so this is all a test and see sort of  
> thing. When I was first learning SignWriting, I liked that the page  
> numbers were in SignWriting and not with Arabic numerals. However,  
> now that I have gotten skilled with SignWriting and since it was  
> first mentioned a short time ago, I am leaning more to the idea that  
> page numbers might be better with Arabic numerals. I didn't mention  
> anything before because it wasn't what was asked. ;-) But this is a  
> really good question about how numbering pages in SignWritten books  
> should go. I am curious how others feel. :-)
>
> Adam
>
> On Feb 8, 2009, at 2:47 PM, Natasha Escalada-Westland wrote:
>
>> Maybe this has been brought up before regarding page numbers, but I  
>> am curious, why can't the Arabic numerals be used?  Written English  
>> (and many other written languages) numbers pages using 1, 2, 3 and  
>> so forth rather than one, two, three or uno, dos, tres.  I'm  
>> wondering what the consensus is with regard to SignWriting?
>>
>> Natasha Escalada-Westland, M.Ed. (D/HH), Macromedia Cert.
>> www.westlandasl.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > From: sutton at signwriting.org
>> > To: sw-l at majordomo.valenciacc.edu
>> > Subject: Re: [sw-l] Nominal vs Cardinal numbers in ASL
>> > Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2009 12:43:28 -0800
>> >
>> > SignWriting List
>> > February 8, 2009
>> >
>> > Thank you, Adam, for this really good explanation of the  
>> problem...and
>> > for your vote for nominal. That has always been my feeling too...
>> >
>> > However, around four months ago I had a long discussion with  
>> another
>> > native ASL signer about this and that person voted for the
>> > cardinal...so if you count my vote, then we have one cardinal and  
>> two
>> > nominal, but i am not native or Deaf...so we need more opinions, or
>> > maybe test readers and ask them to search for pages in the book  
>> only
>> > using ASL numbers to see which works best for them finding the  
>> pages
>> > fast...
>> >
>> > Any others have opinions on nominal or cardinal page numbers in  
>> ASL?
>> >
>> > Val ;-)
>> >
>> > -----------
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Feb 8, 2009, at 12:01 PM, Adam Frost wrote:
>> >
>> > > A very fine line here because page numbers are counted pages  
>> which
>> > > number the page with a label. They are often used as both
>> > > interchangeably mostly because English doesn't distinguish  
>> between
>> > > both and most people don't know the difference. When thinking  
>> about
>> > > how I usually refer to pages, I usually use the cardinal form  
>> as I
>> > > am basically saying "turn 5 pages from the beginning" verses  
>> "turn
>> > > to page 5" which would use the nominal form. However, I think  
>> that
>> > > we are actually labeling the page as "Page 5" so I think that in
>> > > this case it should be nominals that are used. I hope that makes
>> > > sense. Anyway, that is my 2 cents worth. (Hmm... would that 2 be
>> > > cardinal or nominal? Ha!) ;-)
>> > >
>> > > Adam
>> > >
>> > > On Feb 8, 2009, at 11:40 AM, SignWriting wrote:
>> > >
>> > >> SignWriting List
>> > >> February 8, 2009
>> > >>
>> > >> Hi SW Listers!
>> > >> I need your advice. Most ASL numbers are the same whether they  
>> are
>> > >> nominal or cardinal, but there are five that are  
>> different....the
>> > >> first five numbers are cardinal inside a sentence, but nominal  
>> when
>> > >> telling people your phone number, your apartment number etc...I
>> > >> believe that is correct anyway ;-))
>> > >>
>> > >> In other words, the cardinal is part of meaning in a sentence,  
>> but
>> > >> the nominal is like a "label"...like stating your Social  
>> Security
>> > >> Number (a long number that represents a person in the US)...if  
>> it
>> > >> has a lot of "ones"...like 111-897-1102...or something like
>> > >> that...I don't believe the palm turns towards the chest when
>> > >> stating your Social Security Number, does it?
>> > >>
>> > >> So when reading tiny tiny page numbers at the bottom of pages  
>> in a
>> > >> 500 page SignWriting book, should the page numbers be nominal or
>> > >> cardinal? I have always felt that the page numbers were like
>> > >> "labels" for finding a page quickly...but others have disagreed
>> > >> with me...meanwhile most people do not have a lot of experience
>> > >> reading large books in SignWriting yet, including myself, so  
>> we all
>> > >> are guessing a bit... It may really be a matter of all of us
>> > >> getting used to this, and figuring out, by testing readers,  
>> who can
>> > >> find page 1 faster...when it is nominal or cardinal? smile...
>> > >>
>> > >> I am updating our old Goldilocks documents with the symbols of  
>> the
>> > >> ISWA and while I am doing that update anyway, I wondered about  
>> the
>> > >> page numbers...They were nominal in the old documents.
>> > >>
>> > >> Should page numbers be nominal or cardinal? Please see  
>> attached...
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> <Nominal-Cardinal.png>
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>
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