SW: cheremic writing; alphabetic orthographies: phonemic writing (hard-data research on deaf processing in Libras & Portuguese)
Jonathan y Yolaine
joyoduncan at GMAIL.COM
Sat Nov 7 01:16:07 UTC 2009
See below links to some of the articles translated into English by
Google Translate.
Fernando Capovilla wrote:
> Dear Erika:
> I have written extensively (unfortunately most papers and books are in
> Portuguese, including Volume 8 of my Brazilian Sign Language
> Encyclopedia) on the need for a cheremic writing system (such as
> Sutton's SignWriting) for sign languages in order to allow deaf
> children to enjoy conditions similar to those of the hearing. For
> hearing children the alphabetical writing (English orthography) maps
> their oral-aural language (Spoken English). Upon literacy acquisition
> in an alphabetical writing system (such as the Portuguese
> orthography), hearing children become able to map the
> visemic-lalemic-phonemic properties of their spoken Portuguese. By the
> same token, upon learning to read and write signs in SW, deaf children
> become able to map the cheremic-visual properties of their sign
> language (e.g., Libras). At the Cognitive Neuropsycholinguistic Lab of
> the U. of Sao Paulo, over the last 20 years, I have conducted a vast
> number of experiments on deaf language and deaf cognition pertaining
> visemic processing, lalemic processing, sign processing, reading
> acquisition, spelling acquisition, memory development, lexical
> development, etc, that give strong support to the use of SW in deaf
> education.
> In case you read Portuguese, perhaps you may be interested in
> consulting some of the links below. In case you do not read
> Portuguese, a number of abstracts are provided. They give you access
> to vast segments of the Encyclopedia volume 8, and the
> Dictionary volumes 1 and 2, which discuss deaf cognition and deaf
> language development and processing. SW is one of the many topics that
> are examined in those volumes. You may also find much help in
> volumes 4, 3, 2, 1 (they may also be consulted via Internet - at least
> vast parts of them). In addition to that, my Libras Dictionary
> (volumes 1 and 2 bring 3 chapters devoted to discussing SW and its
> importance). You may also have access to those volumes (or parts of
> them) via Internet. See reference and links below
> Capovilla, F. C., and W. D. Raphael, eds. 2001. /Dicionário
> enciclopédico ilustrado trilíngue da Língua de Sinais Brasileira:
> Vols. 1 (Sinais de A a L) & 2 (Sinais de M a Z)/. [Trilingual
> illustrated encyclopedic dictionary of Brazilian Sign Language, Vols.
> 1 and 2] São Paulo: Edusp, FAPESP, Fundação Vitae, Feneis, Brasil
> Telecom. Volume One: ISBN 85-314-0600-5
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:BookSources/8531406005> Volume
> Two: ISBN 85-314-0603-X
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:BookSources/853140603X>
>
> Sincerely,
> Fernando Capovilla, PhD
> Psychology Professor
> University of Sao Paulo
>
> (the first half of volume 8 depicts signs along with their SW
> renditions; the second part of volume 8 brings a 400-500 chapter
> devoted to deaf cognitive processing theory and deaf labguage
> assessment tools and data)
>
> Encyclopedia vol 8
>
> http://books.google.com.br/books?id=HV77emkREiUC&pg=PA777&lpg=PA777&dq=capovilla+enciclopedia+libras+vol.+8&source=bl&ots=zlaw9NU9Bf&sig=hGQTiuoZcG-FxDIdRSkZCxXjhOU&hl=pt-BR&ei=LGD0SsGAD8Go8AaXmpHzCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CBwQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=&f=false
> <http://books.google.com.br/books?id=HV77emkREiUC&pg=PA777&lpg=PA777&dq=capovilla+enciclopedia+libras+vol.+8&source=bl&ots=zlaw9NU9Bf&sig=hGQTiuoZcG-FxDIdRSkZCxXjhOU&hl=pt-BR&ei=LGD0SsGAD8Go8AaXmpHzCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CBwQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=&f=false>
>
> Dictionary
>
> http://books.google.com.br/books?id=25zeGebRhNcC&pg=PA1557&lpg=PA1557&dq=capovilla+libras&source=bl&ots=5IrqhsOraW&sig=ec-oAHQt6eWXeH8Ziri7jz8I-Zg&hl=pt-BR&ei=OmP0StagIo_Q8QaDz7jzCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CB8Q6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=capovilla%20libras&f=false
> <http://books.google.com.br/books?id=25zeGebRhNcC&pg=PA1557&lpg=PA1557&dq=capovilla+libras&source=bl&ots=5IrqhsOraW&sig=ec-oAHQt6eWXeH8Ziri7jz8I-Zg&hl=pt-BR&ei=OmP0StagIo_Q8QaDz7jzCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CB8Q6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=capovilla%20libras&f=false>
>
Here are the same links translated by Google translate to English
> some papers
>
> http://ojs.c3sl.ufpr.br/ojs2/index.php/psicologia/article/view/3252
> <http://translate.google.hn/translate?hl=en&sl=pt&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fojs.c3sl.ufpr.br%2Fojs2%2Findex.php%2Fpsicologia%2Farticle%2Fdownload%2F3252%2F2612>
> <http://translate.google.hn/translate?hl=en&sl=pt&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fojs.c3sl.ufpr.br%2Fojs2%2Findex.php%2Fpsicologia%2Farticle%2Fdownload%2F3252%2F2612>
> http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1298027
>
> http://www.scielo.br/pdf/rbee/v12n2/a05v12n2.pdf
*WHEN DEAF STUDENTS CHOOSE WORDS WRITTEN TO NOMINATE ...*
<http://translate.google.hn/translate?hl=en&sl=pt&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.scielo.br%2Fpdf%2Frbee%2Fv12n2%2Fa05v12n2.pdf>
>
> http://ojs.c3sl.ufpr.br/ojs2/index.php/psicologia/article/viewFile/3252/2612
<http://translate.google.hn/translate?hl=en&sl=pt&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fredalyc.uaemex.mx%2Fredalyc%2Fpdf%2F261%2F26110103.pdf>
*Assessing Understanding of Sign in Libras*
<http://translate.google.hn/translate?hl=en&sl=pt&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fojs.c3sl.ufpr.br%2Fojs2%2Findex.php%2Fpsicologia%2Farticle%2Fdownload%2F3252%2F2612>
> **
> <http://translate.google.hn/translate?hl=en&sl=pt&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fojs.c3sl.ufpr.br%2Fojs2%2Findex.php%2Fpsicologia%2Farticle%2Fdownload%2F3252%2F2612>
> <http://translate.google.hn/translate?hl=en&sl=pt&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fojs.c3sl.ufpr.br%2Fojs2%2Findex.php%2Fpsicologia%2Farticle%2Fdownload%2F3252%2F2612>
> http://redalyc.uaemex.mx/redalyc/pdf/261/26110103.pdf
*PROCEDURES logographic, alphabetical and lexical IN READING SILENT FOR
DEAF AND LISTENERS
<http://translate.google.hn/translate?hl=en&sl=pt&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fredalyc.uaemex.mx%2Fredalyc%2Fpdf%2F261%2F26110103.pdf>*
>
> http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?pid=S1413-65382006000200005&script=sci_arttext
> <http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?pid=S1413-65382006000200005&script=sci_arttext>
*When deaf students choose words written to name figures: paralexias
orthographic, semantic and Quireme*
<http://translate.google.hn/translate?hl=en&sl=pt&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.scielo.br%2Fscielo.php%3Fpid%3DS1413-65382006000200005%26script%3Dsci_arttext>
>
> http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?pid=S1413-294X2005000100003&script=sci_arttext&tlng=en
> <http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?pid=S1413-294X2005000100003&script=sci_arttext&tlng=en>
*Processes logographic, alphabetic and lexical in silent reading by deaf
and hearing*
<http://translate.google.hn/translate?hl=en&sl=pt&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.scielo.br%2Fscielo.php%3Fpid%3DS1413-294X2005000100003%26script%3Dsci_arttext%26tlng%3Den>
>
> http://observatorio.inep.gov.br/index2.php?option=com_content&do_pdf=1&id=35
> <http://observatorio.inep.gov.br/index2.php?option=com_content&do_pdf=1&id=35>
Analysis of the performance differential of children under the regime of
inclusion in the Test In Braziil Long Distance
<http://translate.google.hn/translate?hl=en&sl=pt&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fobservatorio.inep.gov.br%2Findex2.php%3Foption%3Dcom_content%26do_pdf%3D1%26id%3D35>
>
> http://www.mackenzie.br/fileadmin/Editora/Revista_Psicologia/Teoria_e_Pratica_Volume_6_-_Numero_2/v6n2_art1.pdf
*Cognitive abilities that predict **competence in reading and writing*
<http://translate.google.hn/translate?hl=en&sl=pt&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mackenzie.br%2Ffileadmin%2FEditora%2FRevista_Psicologia%2FTeoria_e_Pratica_Volume_6_-_Numero_2%2Fv6n2_art1.pdf>
>
> in case you may be interested in acquiring via Internet from several
> bookstores
>
> vol 1
>
> http://www.martinsfontespaulista.com.br/site/busca_proaut.aspx?pag=1&ac=9825
> <http://www.martinsfontespaulista.com.br/site/busca_proaut.aspx?pag=1&ac=9825>
> http://www.livrariaresposta.com.br/v2/produto.php?id=57883&origem=1
> <http://www.livrariaresposta.com.br/v2/produto.php?id=57883&origem=1>
>
> vol 3
>
> http://www.jacotei.com.br/enciclopedia-da-lingua-de-sinais-brasileira-o-mundo-do-surdo-em-libras-vol-3-capovilla-fernando-cesar-raphael-walkiria-duarte-8531408555.html
>
> vol 8
>
> http://compare.buscape.com.br/enciclopedia-da-lingua-de-sinais-brasileira-vol-8-o-mundo-de-surdo-em-libras-palavras-de-funcao-gramatical-fernando-cesar-capovilla-walkiria-duarte-raphael-8531409020.html
>
> vol 4
>
> http://www.edusp.com.br/detlivro.asp?ID=408700
>
> vol 2
>
> http://compare.buscape.com.br/enciclopedia-da-lingua-de-sinais-brasileira-vol-2-o-mundo-dos-surdos-em-libras-artes-e-culturaesportes-fernando-cesar-capovilla-walkiria-duarte-raphael-8531408490.html
>
> dictionary
>
> http://eduspweb.usp.br/detlivro.asp?ID=408700
>
> http://www.martinsfontespaulista.com.br/site/detalhes.aspx?ProdutoCodigo=270899
>
> http://www.planetanews.com/produto/L/100988/dicionario-enciclopedico-ilustrado-trilingue-da-lingua-de-sinais----fernando-cesar-capovilla---walkiria-duarte-raphael.html
>
> http://www.hucitec.com.br/loja/produtos_descricao.asp?lang=pt_BR&codigo_produto=2758
> <http://www.hucitec.com.br/loja/produtos_descricao.asp?lang=pt_BR&codigo_produto=2758>
>
>
> http://www.saocamilo-sp.br/pdf/mundo_saude/34/recursos_reabilitacao.pdf
>
> http://www.alfaebeto.com.br/BLOG/post_valeapenaler.php?id=87
>
> http://www.app.com.br/portalapp/imprensa/edu_alunos_nao_ouvintes.pdf
>
> http://books.google.com.br/books?id=25zeGebRhNcC&pg=PA1557&lpg=PA1557&dq=capovilla+libras&source=bl&ots=5IrqhsOraW&sig=ec-oAHQt6eWXeH8Ziri7jz8I-Zg&hl=pt-BR&ei=9mP0SuqCOcik8Qby7pnzCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CCIQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=capovilla%20libras&f=false
> <http://books.google.com.br/books?id=25zeGebRhNcC&pg=PA1557&lpg=PA1557&dq=capovilla+libras&source=bl&ots=5IrqhsOraW&sig=ec-oAHQt6eWXeH8Ziri7jz8I-Zg&hl=pt-BR&ei=9mP0SuqCOcik8Qby7pnzCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CCIQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=capovilla%20libras&f=false>
>
>
>
> 2009/11/6 <sw-l-request at majordomo.valenciacc.edu
> <mailto:sw-l-request at majordomo.valenciacc.edu>>
>
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> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of SW-L digest..."
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. common criticisms of signwriting? (Erika Hoffmann)
> 2. Re: common criticisms of signwriting? (Valerie Sutton)
> 3. Re: common criticisms of signwriting? (Cherie Wren)
> 4. Re: common criticisms of signwriting? (Trevor Jenkins)
> 5. Re: common criticisms of signwriting? (Steve Slevinski)
>
>
> ---------- Mensagem encaminhada ----------
> From: "Erika Hoffmann" <erhoffma at oberlin.edu
> <mailto:erhoffma at oberlin.edu>>
> To: sw-l at majordomo.valenciacc.edu
> <mailto:sw-l at majordomo.valenciacc.edu>
> Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 15:40:22 -0500
> Subject: [sw-l] common criticisms of signwriting?
> Hi! I mentioned the last time I posted that I'm working on a paper
> about SignWriting for presentation at the American Anthropological
> Association meeting in December.
> One of the things I'm thinking about is the ways in which Signwriting
> and Signwriten documents can be used to critique dominant ideologies
> about language and writing that are common in Linguistics and related
> disciplines. At the same time, I want to note that the radical nature
> of the script can sometimes be a social barrier to its adoption by
> signers (particularly because of the historical relationship between
> the Linguistic validation of sign languages with the social validation
> of Deaf signers).
> I'm wondering if any of you would be willing to share some of the ways
> you've heard people criticize or dismiss SSW (or point me to places
> where these opinions are aired). I'm looking for people's concerns
> about the script itself (i.e., "it looks like hieroglyphics") rather
> than the other common arguments about the need for a script at all
> (i.e., "Deaf people can just write in English").
> Thanks!
> Best,
> Erika
>
>
>
> ---------- Mensagem encaminhada ----------
> From: "Valerie Sutton" <sutton at signwriting.org
> <mailto:sutton at signwriting.org>>
> To: "SignWriting List" <sw-l at majordomo.valenciacc.edu
> <mailto:sw-l at majordomo.valenciacc.edu>>
> Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 13:50:57 -0800
> Subject: Re: [sw-l] common criticisms of signwriting?
> SignWriting List
> November 5, 2009
>
> Hello Erika!
> Thanks for this question. The controversial nature of all new
> ideas can be puzzling sometimes, but I think it is a part of human
> nature to be skeptical of anything we do not have familiarity with...
>
> I actually do not think that comments from people who do not know
> SignWriting should cause too much concern...it is only natural
> that certain reactions happen...like "it looks like Chinese"....
>
> You are right that people do say that it looks like
> hieroglyphics...but i see that as a positive thing, although I try
> to explain why it is not hieroglyphics from a technical point of
> view and most of them immediately say that they didn't realize
> that SignWriting wrote body movement...most people compare it to
> Chinese very fast, but that is only because it is written down in
> vertical columns and because they see visual clusters of symbols
> in both writing systems, but when I point out that SignWriting is
> not writing concepts, but instead we are writing body parts moving
> in space, and the people who know each sign language have to
> attach to those movements, the meanings that go with them in their
> specific language, where in Chinese a person who speaks a rare
> dialect far away, can still write concepts in Chinese, and there
> is no connection in their writing, to how they pronounce their
> words...therefore SignWriting is alphabetical and not
> logographic...but all that conversation is too complex for most
> people...most people say something like it looks like Chinese or
> heiroglyphics only in passing...but as soon as they sit down for
> five minutes and learn the dark and light palm facing and a few
> movement symbols, they realize it is different...
>
> I am printing books on my home computer right now...the first 7
> chapters of the Gospel According to John in ASL are being printed
> and bound with laminated covers...I am doing them all myself in
> two sizes...big book size and a half-size that is more like the
> size of Bibles, and I am sending copies to the Vatican for a
> conference on November 19th. I have already sent copies to Malta
> to Marie and Maria to take with them to the Vatican for the
> conference. Once I am done printing, I will be happy to send a few
> of you some copies of the book. It will also be available for
> download and for sale shortly on the web and I will announce this
> when it is ready -
>
> Hope others will answer Erika's question -
>
> Thank you Erika!
>
> Val ;-)
>
> --------
>
>
>
> On Nov 5, 2009, at 12:40 PM, Erika Hoffmann wrote:
>
> Hi! I mentioned the last time I posted that I'm working on a paper
> about SignWriting for presentation at the American Anthropological
> Association meeting in December.
> One of the things I'm thinking about is the ways in which
> Signwriting
> and Signwriten documents can be used to critique dominant
> ideologies
> about language and writing that are common in Linguistics and
> related
> disciplines. At the same time, I want to note that the radical
> nature
> of the script can sometimes be a social barrier to its adoption by
> signers (particularly because of the historical relationship
> between
> the Linguistic validation of sign languages with the social
> validation
> of Deaf signers).
> I'm wondering if any of you would be willing to share some of
> the ways
> you've heard people criticize or dismiss SSW (or point me to
> places
> where these opinions are aired). I'm looking for people's concerns
> about the script itself (i.e., "it looks like hieroglyphics")
> rather
> than the other common arguments about the need for a script at all
> (i.e., "Deaf people can just write in English").
> Thanks!
> Best,
> Erika
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________
>
> SW-L SignWriting List
>
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>
>
>
> ---------- Mensagem encaminhada ----------
> From: "Cherie Wren" <cwterp at yahoo.com <mailto:cwterp at yahoo.com>>
> To: "SignWriting List" <sw-l at majordomo.valenciacc.edu
> <mailto:sw-l at majordomo.valenciacc.edu>>
> Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 16:20:08 -0800 (PST)
> Subject: Re: [sw-l] common criticisms of signwriting?
> One I've seen pretty often, although I don't know if its the kind
> you want, is that "You can't write my language." I think its a
> point of pride that ASL is so different that there is no way you
> could possibly reduce it to symbols on paper... Of course that is
> easily proven wrong.
>
> cherie
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* Erika Hoffmann <erhoffma at oberlin.edu
> <mailto:erhoffma at oberlin.edu>>
> *To:* sw-l at majordomo.valenciacc.edu
> <mailto:sw-l at majordomo.valenciacc.edu>
> *Sent:* Thu, November 5, 2009 3:40:22 PM
> *Subject:* [sw-l] common criticisms of signwriting?
>
> Hi! I mentioned the last time I posted that I'm working on a paper
> about SignWriting for presentation at the American Anthropological
> Association meeting in December.
> One of the things I'm thinking about is the ways in which Signwriting
> and Signwriten documents can be used to critique dominant ideologies
> about language and writing that are common in Linguistics and related
> disciplines. At the same time, I want to note that the radical nature
> of the script can sometimes be a social barrier to its adoption by
> signers (particularly because of the historical relationship between
> the Linguistic validation of sign languages with the social validation
> of Deaf signers).
> I'm wondering if any of you would be willing to share some of the ways
> you've heard people criticize or dismiss SSW (or point me to places
> where these opinions are aired). I'm looking for people's concerns
> about the script itself (i.e., "it looks like hieroglyphics") rather
> than the other common arguments about the need for a script at all
> (i.e., "Deaf people can just write in English").
> Thanks!
> Best,
> Erika
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________
>
> SW-L SignWriting List
>
> Post Message
> SW-L at majordomo.valenciacc.edu <mailto:SW-L at majordomo.valenciacc.edu>
>
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>
>
>
> ---------- Mensagem encaminhada ----------
> From: "Trevor Jenkins" <bslwannabe at gmail.com
> <mailto:bslwannabe at gmail.com>>
> To: "SignWriting List" <sw-l at majordomo.valenciacc.edu
> <mailto:sw-l at majordomo.valenciacc.edu>>
> Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 11:55:19 +0000
> Subject: Re: [sw-l] common criticisms of signwriting?
> Interesting topic. One criticism that I've heard about SignWriting
> (from sign language interpreters) is that it is too ideograhic! They
> prefer either Stokoe or HamNoSys notations! Yet if you show a Deaf
> people something transcribed in Stokoe or HamNoSys and the reaction is
> utter confusion. This is exacerbated beacuse the BSL fingerspelling
> alphabet (I'm in the UK) is two-handed and completely different from
> the one-handed ASL alphabet that is used to label handshapes in
> Stokoe.
>
> On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 8:40 PM, Erika Hoffmann
> <erhoffma at oberlin.edu <mailto:erhoffma at oberlin.edu>> wrote:
> > Hi! I mentioned the last time I posted that I'm working on a paper
> > about SignWriting for presentation at the American Anthropological
> > Association meeting in December.
> > One of the things I'm thinking about is the ways in which
> Signwriting
> > and Signwriten documents can be used to critique dominant ideologies
> > about language and writing that are common in Linguistics and
> related
> > disciplines. At the same time, I want to note that the radical
> nature
> > of the script can sometimes be a social barrier to its adoption by
> > signers (particularly because of the historical relationship between
> > the Linguistic validation of sign languages with the social
> validation
> > of Deaf signers).
> > I'm wondering if any of you would be willing to share some of
> the ways
> > you've heard people criticize or dismiss SSW (or point me to places
> > where these opinions are aired). I'm looking for people's concerns
> > about the script itself (i.e., "it looks like hieroglyphics") rather
> > than the other common arguments about the need for a script at all
> > (i.e., "Deaf people can just write in English").
> > Thanks!
> > Best,
> > Erika
> >
> >
> >
> > ____________________________________________
> >
> > SW-L SignWriting List
> >
> > Post Message
> > SW-L at majordomo.valenciacc.edu <mailto:SW-L at majordomo.valenciacc.edu>
> >
> > List Archives and Help
> > http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist/
> >
> > Change Email Settings
> > http://majordomo.valenciacc.edu/mailman/listinfo/sw-l
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Regards, Trevor.
>
> <>< Re: deemed!
>
>
>
> ---------- Mensagem encaminhada ----------
> From: "Steve Slevinski" <slevin at signpuddle.net
> <mailto:slevin at signpuddle.net>>
> To: "SignWriting List" <sw-l at majordomo.valenciacc.edu
> <mailto:sw-l at majordomo.valenciacc.edu>>
> Date: Fri, 06 Nov 2009 09:19:34 -0600
> Subject: Re: [sw-l] common criticisms of signwriting?
> Hi Erika,
>
> There are rational criticisms of SignWriting. Here are the top
> three as I see it.
>
>
> 1) Too much noise for too little signal. Some say that
> SignWriting includes extraneous details that are not needed. The
> extra details inflates the visual size of the script and
> interferes with reading and writing. Some say that SignWriting
> does not record the meaningful streams of sign language directly,
> but that the meaningful parts are absent and must be inferred from
> the writing.
>
>
> 2) SignWriting is hard to write by hand and requires special
> software for computers.
>
>
> 3) SignWriting is too varied and has too much flexibility. The
> number of potential signs is infinite. There are too many
> potential spellings for the same sign.
>
> Most other criticisms are based on ignorance.
>
> Regards,
> -Steve
>
>
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>
> --
> Fernando Capovilla, PhD, Livre Docente
> Professor, Instituto de Psicologia, USP
> Av. Prof. Melo de Morais 1721
> São Paulo, SP, 05508-900
> fcapovilla at gmail.com <mailto:fcapovilla at gmail.com>
>
>
> Sic transit gloria mundi. Aude sapere.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
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--
Jonathan Duncan
email: duncanjonathan at yahoo.ca <mailto:duncanjonathan at yahoo.ca>
joyoduncan at gmail.com <mailto:joyoduncan at gmail.com>
Cel: 9784-9775
Tel: 213-5285
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