receptive vs. expressive - history?
Jonathan y Yolaine
joyoduncan at GMAIL.COM
Thu Oct 22 12:23:50 UTC 2009
Hi Maria,
I strongly agree that the receptive viewpoint should not be taught
to beginners. I remember a while back Val taught us how to change an
expressive writing to receptive. But even though it sounds easy it is
quite complex. The obvious is mirroring the sign right-left. But there
are other details that are important which even make it challenging to
write a program to switch from receptive to expressive or vice-versa.
So if you where to teach them receptive along with expressive, they
would naturally be interested in switching between the two. Which is a
difficult them even for intermediate signwriters.
Jonathan
Here is what Val wrote back in April 2007:
SignWriting List
April 15, 2007
Here are four differences:
1) to mirror the image
2) change the dominant fill
3) forward and back movement arrows reverse direction
4) forward and back projection of hands-fingers reverse direction (palms
facing the floor seen from the Top View)
and there are several more...
You can read about the Receptive View in the Lessons in SignWriting
Textbook online or in PDF:
Go to Chapter 15 on this web page:
http://www.signwriting.org/lessons/lessonsw/lessonsweb.html
or download Number 4 on this web page:
http://www.signwriting.org/lessons/lessonsw/
Val ;-)
MARIA AZZOPARDI wrote:
> Thank you everyone for your contributions to my question. I will not
> include the explanation of the receptive viewpoint - not to confuse anyone
> :)
> Thanks again,
> Maria
>
>
>> I was attracted to SignWriting with the newspaper and fell in love with
>> sign writing at that point. So 1981 it is, I was in seminary at the time,
>> and a lot of things were happening.
>> Charles
>>
>> --- On Wed, 10/21/09, Valerie Sutton <sutton at signwriting.org> wrote:
>>
>> From: Valerie Sutton <sutton at signwriting.org>
>> Subject: Re: [sw-l] receptive vs. expressive - history?
>> To: "SignWriting List" <sw-l at majordomo.valenciacc.edu>
>> Cc: "MARIA AZZOPARDI" <maria.azzopardi at um.edu.mt>
>> Date: Wednesday, October 21, 2009, 1:19 PM
>>
>> SignWriting List
>> October 21, 2009
>>
>> Actually Tini and I knew each other since Copenhagen in 1970...isn't that
>> right Tini? We knew each other before the first book in DanceWriting was
>> published in 1973.
>>
>> Did we really meet in 1978, Charles? I thought it was in the early 1980's.
>> Because I did not start working in the true sense, with SignWriting, until
>> 1981. In 1978, we did have correspondence courses in DanceWriting from the
>> Boston Conservatory of Music and Tini was one of our students. But the
>> SignWriter Newspaper was first published in 1981, and I thought that was
>> how we met, Charles? So I thought it was around 1981 or 1982...but my
>> memory is poor too! funny isn't it..we are all getting old!
>>
>> And DanceWriting can be seen as receptive, but actually it is neither
>> receptive nor expressive. DanceWriting is taken from the "stage view" and
>> adjusts to many viewpoints depending on the choice of the writer...So Tini
>> is correct that it can be written expressively and if that is what you are
>> doing Tini, that is fine!
>>
>> Anyway, there is no question that the writing system can technically be
>> written from any viewpoint, but Gerard is correct. We have a world
>> standard when it comes to SignWriting and we need that for most teachers,
>> who are sooo busy and can only handle so much...so when we teach
>> SignWriting today, we teach the Expressive. That is what is natural to
>> most people. Most people are not writing from videotape. They are writing
>> directly in their own sign language...their daily primary language, and
>> they look at their own hands and feel their own face, and do not put
>> themselves in the position of an imaginary person facing them...
>>
>> So everyone is welcome to teach as they wish, but Maria, if i were you, I
>> personally suggest teaching in the Expressive for SignWriting...I would
>> not throw both viewpoints at beginning students...it is too much for them
>> -
>>
>> Val ;-)
>>
>> -------
>>
>> On Oct 21, 2009, at 10:03 AM, Tini Pel wrote:
>>
>>
>>> You might be right at that Charles about 1978. I sometimes do get mixed
>>> up about dates in my old age.
>>> Tini.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 21-Oct-09, at 9:25 AM, Charles Butler wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Ah, that's a bit of information I have not had, as I learned from
>>>> Valerie directly between 1978 and 1981. We both were switching over to
>>>> expressive at that point.
>>>>
>>>> Charles
>>>>
>>>> --- On Wed, 10/21/09, Tini Pel <tinipel at onlink.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> From: Tini Pel <tinipel at onlink.net>
>>>> Subject: Re: [sw-l] receptive vs. expressive - history?
>>>> To: "SignWriting List" <sw-l at majordomo.valenciacc.edu>
>>>> Date: Wednesday, October 21, 2009, 9:04 AM
>>>>
>>>> Hi Charles,
>>>> Just a little note:
>>>> I write dance writing being behind the dancer, or I become the dancer.
>>>> Since the early ' 70-tees.
>>>> Have a great day
>>>>
>>>> L.I.F.E.
>>>>
>>>> Tini.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 20-Oct-09, at 11:37 PM, Charles Butler wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> For me, I learned receptive first, so it was literally "write what you
>>>>> see" when you are seeing someone else's hands. Then when they
>>>>> switched, I considered it an extension. I just teach "write what you
>>>>> see". Then receptive is for transcribing something brand new if you
>>>>> don't know the meaning, and then expressive when you have moved it to
>>>>> your own hands. Expressive has become the standard for the
>>>>> dictionaries and most usage. Dance writing is still, apparently,
>>>>> receptive. It took me hours to transcribe video tape because I think
>>>>> to write what someone else is doing, and then reverse it to my hands
>>>>> is the challenge.
>>>>>
>>>>> Charles
>>>>>
>>>>> --- On Tue, 10/20/09, MARIA AZZOPARDI <maria.azzopardi at um.edu.mt>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> From: MARIA AZZOPARDI <maria.azzopardi at um.edu.mt>
>>>>> Subject: [sw-l] receptive vs. expressive - history?
>>>>> To: "SignWriting List" <sw-l at majordomo.valenciacc.edu>
>>>>> Date: Tuesday, October 20, 2009, 5:13 PM
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>
>>>>> I was wondering what to do with the receptive and expressive view
>>>>> points,
>>>>> when teaching signwriting.
>>>>>
>>>>> As teachers of signwriting, would you include this explanation - or
>>>>> would
>>>>> presenting the two possibilities create a problem that might not be
>>>>> there.
>>>>>
>>>>> I've found that when I explain how to signwrite the different
>>>>> orientations
>>>>> I explain the 'expressive viewpt' and never include the receptive
>>>>> view, so
>>>>> as not to 'teach' them something that I will later have to unteach.
>>>>>
>>>>> do you find that explaining the expressive view and leaving out the
>>>>> 'receptive' writing, acceptable?
>>>>>
>>>>> thanks
>>>>> Maria
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
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>
>
>
>
>
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--
Jonathan Duncan
email: duncanjonathan at yahoo.ca <mailto:duncanjonathan at yahoo.ca>
joyoduncan at gmail.com <mailto:joyoduncan at gmail.com>
Cel: 9784-9775
Tel: 213-5285
cobanma.ibs-cobanma.com <http://cobanma.ibs-cobanma.com>
Personal Blog <http://JonathanYolaine.ibs-cobanma.com/>
The SignWriter Studio <http://thesignwriterstudio.ibs-cobanma.com/>
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