receptive vs. expressive - history?
SignWriting
signwriting at MAC.COM
Thu Oct 22 14:35:55 UTC 2009
SignWriting List
October 22, 2009
Wow, Jonathan...thank you for finding this old message! It is a
perfect explanation as to why we need to teach the Expressive to
students and not confuse them...SignWriting began in 1974, when I was
hired by the University of Copenhagen to write the movements of Deaf
and hearing people on a video. The Deaf people were signing in Danish
Sign Language, and the hearing people were talking to each other in
Danish spoken language, but like all hearing people, they were
gesturing a little, while they were speaking, and their gestures had
nothing to do with any sign language, but the researchers wanted to
show the differences between hearing person's gestures and real sign
language...so you can see that my development of the first SignWriting
was based on looking at a videotape of signers, which meant that it
was natural for me to write in the Receptive...but once Deaf people
started to really use SignWriting as a daily writing system, to write
the SignWriter Newspaper articles in ASL and DSL, from 1981 to 1984,
they gave us the necessary feedback to tell us what was really needed
for a daily writing system...they demanded Expressive, because they
are expressing themselves when they write...as we do in English
too...so the Expressive has been the norm since 1984...that is 25
years of Expressive writing, and a quarter of a century has proven
that Expressive works!
This explanation below is a clear example why switching back and forth
is very confusing for people...
So thanks once again, Jonathan -
Val ;-)
-----
On Oct 22, 2009, at 5:23 AM, Jonathan y Yolaine wrote:
> Hi Maria,
> I strongly agree that the receptive viewpoint should not be
> taught to beginners. I remember a while back Val taught us how to
> change an expressive writing to receptive. But even though it
> sounds easy it is quite complex. The obvious is mirroring the sign
> right-left. But there are other details that are important which
> even make it challenging to write a program to switch from receptive
> to expressive or vice-versa. So if you where to teach them
> receptive along with expressive, they would naturally be interested
> in switching between the two. Which is a difficult them even for
> intermediate signwriters.
>
> Jonathan
>
> Here is what Val wrote back in April 2007:
> SignWriting List
> April 15, 2007
>
> Here are four differences:
>
> 1) to mirror the image
> 2) change the dominant fill
> 3) forward and back movement arrows reverse direction
> 4) forward and back projection of hands-fingers reverse direction
> (palms facing the floor seen from the Top View)
>
> and there are several more...
>
> You can read about the Receptive View in the Lessons in SignWriting
> Textbook online or in PDF:
>
> Go to Chapter 15 on this web page:
> http://www.signwriting.org/lessons/lessonsw/lessonsweb.html
>
> or download Number 4 on this web page:
> http://www.signwriting.org/lessons/lessonsw/
>
> Val ;-)
>
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>
> MARIA AZZOPARDI wrote:
>>
>> Thank you everyone for your contributions to my question. I will not
>> include the explanation of the receptive viewpoint - not to confuse
>> anyone
>> :)
>> Thanks again,
>> Maria
>>
>>
>>> I was attracted to SignWriting with the newspaper and fell in love
>>> with
>>> sign writing at that point. So 1981 it is, I was in seminary at
>>> the time,
>>> and a lot of things were happening.
>>> Charles
>>>
>>> --- On Wed, 10/21/09, Valerie Sutton <sutton at signwriting.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> From: Valerie Sutton <sutton at signwriting.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [sw-l] receptive vs. expressive - history?
>>> To: "SignWriting List" <sw-l at majordomo.valenciacc.edu>
>>> Cc: "MARIA AZZOPARDI" <maria.azzopardi at um.edu.mt>
>>> Date: Wednesday, October 21, 2009, 1:19 PM
>>>
>>> SignWriting List
>>> October 21, 2009
>>>
>>> Actually Tini and I knew each other since Copenhagen in
>>> 1970...isn't that
>>> right Tini? We knew each other before the first book in
>>> DanceWriting was
>>> published in 1973.
>>>
>>> Did we really meet in 1978, Charles? I thought it was in the early
>>> 1980's.
>>> Because I did not start working in the true sense, with
>>> SignWriting, until
>>> 1981. In 1978, we did have correspondence courses in DanceWriting
>>> from the
>>> Boston Conservatory of Music and Tini was one of our students. But
>>> the
>>> SignWriter Newspaper was first published in 1981, and I thought
>>> that was
>>> how we met, Charles? So I thought it was around 1981 or 1982...but
>>> my
>>> memory is poor too! funny isn't it..we are all getting old!
>>>
>>> And DanceWriting can be seen as receptive, but actually it is
>>> neither
>>> receptive nor expressive. DanceWriting is taken from the "stage
>>> view" and
>>> adjusts to many viewpoints depending on the choice of the
>>> writer...So Tini
>>> is correct that it can be written expressively and if that is what
>>> you are
>>> doing Tini, that is fine!
>>>
>>> Anyway, there is no question that the writing system can
>>> technically be
>>> written from any viewpoint, but Gerard is correct. We have a world
>>> standard when it comes to SignWriting and we need that for most
>>> teachers,
>>> who are sooo busy and can only handle so much...so when we teach
>>> SignWriting today, we teach the Expressive. That is what is
>>> natural to
>>> most people. Most people are not writing from videotape. They are
>>> writing
>>> directly in their own sign language...their daily primary
>>> language, and
>>> they look at their own hands and feel their own face, and do not put
>>> themselves in the position of an imaginary person facing them...
>>>
>>> So everyone is welcome to teach as they wish, but Maria, if i were
>>> you, I
>>> personally suggest teaching in the Expressive for SignWriting...I
>>> would
>>> not throw both viewpoints at beginning students...it is too much
>>> for them
>>> -
>>>
>>> Val ;-)
>>>
>>> -------
>>>
>>> On Oct 21, 2009, at 10:03 AM, Tini Pel wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> You might be right at that Charles about 1978. I sometimes do get
>>>> mixed
>>>> up about dates in my old age.
>>>> Tini.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 21-Oct-09, at 9:25 AM, Charles Butler wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Ah, that's a bit of information I have not had, as I learned from
>>>>> Valerie directly between 1978 and 1981. We both were switching
>>>>> over to
>>>>> expressive at that point.
>>>>>
>>>>> Charles
>>>>>
>>>>> --- On Wed, 10/21/09, Tini Pel <tinipel at onlink.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> From: Tini Pel <tinipel at onlink.net>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [sw-l] receptive vs. expressive - history?
>>>>> To: "SignWriting List" <sw-l at majordomo.valenciacc.edu>
>>>>> Date: Wednesday, October 21, 2009, 9:04 AM
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Charles,
>>>>> Just a little note:
>>>>> I write dance writing being behind the dancer, or I become the
>>>>> dancer.
>>>>> Since the early ' 70-tees.
>>>>> Have a great day
>>>>>
>>>>> L.I.F.E.
>>>>>
>>>>> Tini.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 20-Oct-09, at 11:37 PM, Charles Butler wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> For me, I learned receptive first, so it was literally "write
>>>>>> what you
>>>>>> see" when you are seeing someone else's hands. Then when they
>>>>>> switched, I considered it an extension. I just teach "write
>>>>>> what you
>>>>>> see". Then receptive is for transcribing something brand new
>>>>>> if you
>>>>>> don't know the meaning, and then expressive when you have moved
>>>>>> it to
>>>>>> your own hands. Expressive has become the standard for the
>>>>>> dictionaries and most usage. Dance writing is still, apparently,
>>>>>> receptive. It took me hours to transcribe video tape because I
>>>>>> think
>>>>>> to write what someone else is doing, and then reverse it to my
>>>>>> hands
>>>>>> is the challenge.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Charles
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --- On Tue, 10/20/09, MARIA AZZOPARDI <maria.azzopardi at um.edu.mt>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> From: MARIA AZZOPARDI <maria.azzopardi at um.edu.mt>
>>>>>> Subject: [sw-l] receptive vs. expressive - history?
>>>>>> To: "SignWriting List" <sw-l at majordomo.valenciacc.edu>
>>>>>> Date: Tuesday, October 20, 2009, 5:13 PM
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I was wondering what to do with the receptive and expressive view
>>>>>> points,
>>>>>> when teaching signwriting.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As teachers of signwriting, would you include this explanation
>>>>>> - or
>>>>>> would
>>>>>> presenting the two possibilities create a problem that might
>>>>>> not be
>>>>>> there.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I've found that when I explain how to signwrite the different
>>>>>> orientations
>>>>>> I explain the 'expressive viewpt' and never include the receptive
>>>>>> view, so
>>>>>> as not to 'teach' them something that I will later have to
>>>>>> unteach.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> do you find that explaining the expressive view and leaving out
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> 'receptive' writing, acceptable?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> thanks
>>>>>> Maria
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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>>>>> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>
>>
>>
>>
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>
>
> --
> Jonathan Duncan
> email: duncanjonathan at yahoo.ca
> joyoduncan at gmail.com
> Cel: 9784-9775
> Tel: 213-5285
> cobanma.ibs-cobanma.com
> Personal Blog
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>
>
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